loach in unheated water
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loach in unheated water
clown loach for sale australia. approx 6.5''
Last edited by lisa333 on Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:02 pm, edited 6 times in total.
if you live in the tropics...able to live in unheated water.
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grizzlyone
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well, where shall I start...just because they seem "fine" doesn't mean they are in a comfortable environment. Clowns are tropical fish. See the species index for their optimal conditions.
If you take a look around you also see that people have come here with Clowns in smaller that required tanks. It actually stunts their growth permanently and can drastically shorten their life. Most of the people here would probably not buy your fish because they've not been treated right. They might take them off your hands gratis like you would take in an animal who has been mistreated by their owner.
I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't know how to treat them but then your " they seem fine" just irked me a bit. Nothing personal, but I don't like to see any type pf animal mistreated. I have the same reaction when I see horribly obese dogs because their owners spoil them....
see www.noclownsinacube.net for more information
Kevin
If you take a look around you also see that people have come here with Clowns in smaller that required tanks. It actually stunts their growth permanently and can drastically shorten their life. Most of the people here would probably not buy your fish because they've not been treated right. They might take them off your hands gratis like you would take in an animal who has been mistreated by their owner.
I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't know how to treat them but then your " they seem fine" just irked me a bit. Nothing personal, but I don't like to see any type pf animal mistreated. I have the same reaction when I see horribly obese dogs because their owners spoil them....
see www.noclownsinacube.net for more information
Kevin
assumed they have adapted to the water conditions, as animals can adapt evolutionary style. their growth has not been stunted as theyve been growing for the past few years. they are lively and healthy and have never been subject to any disease or sickness.
just because the textbook says things have to be a certain way, doesnt mean they are set in concrete. if my fish looked uncomfortable or unhealthy, ofcourse i would do something about it, but they are not. they are exactly as other loach are who live in warm water.
and yeah, sticking by my word:
this water is not cold, and seeing as u live in the states, u clearly cannot percieve the temperature unless u live here. until you've seen them, or had some expert examine them you are in no position to make judgement. loaches by nature have certain optimal conditions, but things do change. not comparing it to major cases of adaptation, but it does happen.
the textbooks say loaches generally cant be bred in aquarium environments, so if a guy miraculously did manage to do it, are you gonna go and accuse him of being a liar, or that his loach were born into an unhealthy environment via unhealthy methods?
pls dont compare my fish to an overweight dog. thats ridiculous, clearly the severity of mistreatment would be impairing the dog physically and behaviourally. i do check water conditions regularly to make sure its stable and i keep a close watch on my fish, as we all like to do im sure. do not try to look like a redeemer by accusing me of things without knowing it all yourself. but i will take into account what u have said and keep a lookout for any of the signs you have mentioned. i am not saying that i know better than anyone else, but im saying that each fish is unique and different. if u think all loach are all the same, and they all like the same things, well then thats you.
and unless ur telling me u can talk to fish, and they are telling u they are uncomfortable, there are no physical or observable signs of discomfort. dont believe me? come over and see for yourself. but i can assure you they are 'fine'. fine meaning: healthy, lively, growing, exactly as they should be according to the book. and despite who is wrong or right, i think that is the most important thing here.
that is all.
just because the textbook says things have to be a certain way, doesnt mean they are set in concrete. if my fish looked uncomfortable or unhealthy, ofcourse i would do something about it, but they are not. they are exactly as other loach are who live in warm water.
and yeah, sticking by my word:
this water is not cold, and seeing as u live in the states, u clearly cannot percieve the temperature unless u live here. until you've seen them, or had some expert examine them you are in no position to make judgement. loaches by nature have certain optimal conditions, but things do change. not comparing it to major cases of adaptation, but it does happen.
the textbooks say loaches generally cant be bred in aquarium environments, so if a guy miraculously did manage to do it, are you gonna go and accuse him of being a liar, or that his loach were born into an unhealthy environment via unhealthy methods?
pls dont compare my fish to an overweight dog. thats ridiculous, clearly the severity of mistreatment would be impairing the dog physically and behaviourally. i do check water conditions regularly to make sure its stable and i keep a close watch on my fish, as we all like to do im sure. do not try to look like a redeemer by accusing me of things without knowing it all yourself. but i will take into account what u have said and keep a lookout for any of the signs you have mentioned. i am not saying that i know better than anyone else, but im saying that each fish is unique and different. if u think all loach are all the same, and they all like the same things, well then thats you.
and unless ur telling me u can talk to fish, and they are telling u they are uncomfortable, there are no physical or observable signs of discomfort. dont believe me? come over and see for yourself. but i can assure you they are 'fine'. fine meaning: healthy, lively, growing, exactly as they should be according to the book. and despite who is wrong or right, i think that is the most important thing here.
that is all.
Lisa, I work with fish as a student researcher at a department renowned for its 'stress in fish' research, and even though I don't have much time (as I'm running an experiment) I can say this too you.... Stress in fish is not easily observed. It's actually very difficult and to be accurate in any way requires physiological parameters to be tested. Even though you might not say they are stressed by merely observing, fish can have high cortisol (classic stress-related hormone) levels in their blood.
Dutch, i think that is true, that stress would be difficult to observe in fish. what are the effects of cortisol? and would unheated water (still moderately luke warm) be causing substantial amounts of stress despite this being the environment for many years? could they have slowly adapted/survival of the fittest style?
and also, if i start heating the water, wont that cause more stress because of the change of conditions?
thanks for your help/advice
!!
and also, if i start heating the water, wont that cause more stress because of the change of conditions?
thanks for your help/advice
!!
Last edited by lisa333 on Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
What temp is the water you keep them at?this water is not cold,
Actually, no. We may be skeptical at first, but we are always looking for new information, though it helps if some proof is provided.the textbooks say loaches generally cant be bred in aquarium environments, so if a guy miraculously did manage to do it, are you gonna go and accuse him of being a liar, or that his loach were born into an unhealthy environment via unhealthy methods?
Could you tell us more about your set up? Also, since this is an international forum, it would really help if you could mention your general location and a give us a brief introduction to yourself and your fish.
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crazy loaches
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I just wanted to say that there is a lot of truth to that. I have 0 scientific research when it comes to fish but I'd wager that at least half of all fish that die in an aquarium the owners say 'they looked perfectly healthy yesterday'.Dutch wrote:Lisa, I work with fish as a student researcher at a department renowned for its 'stress in fish' research, and even though I don't have much time (as I'm running an experiment) I can say this too you.... Stress in fish is not easily observed. It's actually very difficult and to be accurate in any way requires physiological parameters to be tested. Even though you might not say they are stressed by merely observing, fish can have high cortisol (classic stress-related hormone) levels in their blood.
And just to add to the discussion, evolutionary style adaptations dont occur in a short period of time, or even in a single fishes life... What if the world temperature was to decline significantly... well I bet there would be a lot of dead loaches personally. Fish can tolerate conditions outside of ideal there isnt a question about that. Its just a matter of how far out of norm, and whats best for the fish. And youll find that folks here will generally be quick to point out any less than ideal conditions, thats what people do on forums like this. Its your choice what you do with that info. The species profiles here are an excellent source of general parameters for just about all loaches. If your a little bit out of spec thats one thing. If the lives of your fish are in jeopardy then thats something else. I missed all the earlier information so I unfortunately can't come to any opinion good or bad, just the generalizations I have made.
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Martin Thoene
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Was this the thread that started out titled as something about large Clown(s) for sale? I think so....correct me if I'm wrong. I'm late to the show.
Lisa, I note that your posts seem to have created some controversy and it appears that you edited the original posts to remove whatever it was you said that has created this conflict of opinion. It is your right to edit your own posts but it kind of negates any stance of opinion you might be taking if the original statements are no longer visible.
It appears that temperature is the issue here right?
You have a total of four posts. If I assume that you're an adult have you ever been in a work situation where some new employee comes in and starts telling the other employees how to do their job better? It creates an instant conflict and it's about the most uncool and insensitive thing any newbie to any environment can do.
By apparently insisting that your Clowns are quite fine and dandy in an unheated tank you are in direct opposition to the hundreds of years of accumulated practical knowledge of how to keep these fish properly that is the foundation of this site. It is hardly suprising that your opinion meets resistance.
Further, by not specifying the exact temprature of your tank it appears that you are attempting to create a conflict on purpose?
"Unheated" is a very ambiguous term and should be more correctly termed ambient surrounding temperature regulated. If the tank is in a room that is in the low 80's F then the whole argument is a moot point.
Please be clear in what you are stating.
Give us a temperature to chew on.
One factor that has so far been ignored here is the fact that those of us that have been keeping Clowns for many years no absolutely that one of the best ways to guard against the dreaded Ich is to keep the fish in temperatures of at least 82F. Anything lower than that slows their metabolism and lays them open to infection.
Keep Clowns warmer than your average "tropical" fish. This much I know is true.
Martin.
Lisa, I note that your posts seem to have created some controversy and it appears that you edited the original posts to remove whatever it was you said that has created this conflict of opinion. It is your right to edit your own posts but it kind of negates any stance of opinion you might be taking if the original statements are no longer visible.
It appears that temperature is the issue here right?
You have a total of four posts. If I assume that you're an adult have you ever been in a work situation where some new employee comes in and starts telling the other employees how to do their job better? It creates an instant conflict and it's about the most uncool and insensitive thing any newbie to any environment can do.
By apparently insisting that your Clowns are quite fine and dandy in an unheated tank you are in direct opposition to the hundreds of years of accumulated practical knowledge of how to keep these fish properly that is the foundation of this site. It is hardly suprising that your opinion meets resistance.
Further, by not specifying the exact temprature of your tank it appears that you are attempting to create a conflict on purpose?
"Unheated" is a very ambiguous term and should be more correctly termed ambient surrounding temperature regulated. If the tank is in a room that is in the low 80's F then the whole argument is a moot point.
Please be clear in what you are stating.
Give us a temperature to chew on.
One factor that has so far been ignored here is the fact that those of us that have been keeping Clowns for many years no absolutely that one of the best ways to guard against the dreaded Ich is to keep the fish in temperatures of at least 82F. Anything lower than that slows their metabolism and lays them open to infection.
Keep Clowns warmer than your average "tropical" fish. This much I know is true.
Martin.
Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
if the worlds climate suddenly declined, there would be many dead loaches, but a few would survive right. hence naturally selected etc
and also, original posts simply said something along the lines of: 'fish for sale able to live in unheated water'. but have since edited it cus decided to take down the ad because as someone above pointed out, no one would buy due to this.
anyway, still does not answer my question that would this environment be causing substantial amounts of stress despite this being the environment for many years? temperature is approx 75F. could they have slowly adapted/survival of the fittest style? ie could it have an inborn resistance stronger than other fish geared to a wider temperature range? and then over time adapted to this environment? fair enough hundreds of years of knowledge, but once again, not comparing to natural selection, but just an example that individual organisms are able to adapt and respond to environments. perhaps for example Siberian Huskys, with ancestors originating from the siberian arctic, they have a thickly furred double coat im pretty sure their optimal temperatures are preferably colder environments even to this day, with that heavy coat, yet people keep them as housepets in all sorts of temperatures in various parts of the world. yet this is not labelled as mistreatment, because it is accepted that they can adapt their comfort zones accordingly over time
i understand what u say about the workplace thing, im not trying to cause controversy. its just when i put up the ad, some guy attacked me talking of mistreatment and obese dogs, ofcourse, no one responds well to accusation and condemnation. i have never been part of a forum before, and was rather shocked to be blamed for 'animal cruelty' on a first post. perhaps it was my mistake to list it, but accusations of mistreatment are bluntly and overtly pointing figures saying 'you dont care about your pets'. at least now i am recieving some proper advice so i can be more informed on options and actions i may need to take. i mean apart from that one post directed at that one person who attacked me, im actually now asking for opinions and advice hopefully in a discussion rather than debate. like i said, maybe i am wrong maybe im not. everyone has a different point of view.
they have never had Ich or any disease and their lives are certainly not in jeopardy i am sure, but i have recognised what Dutch has said about stress being difficult to detect in fish. Perhaps it was wrong to keep them in unheated water in the first place, i can accept that, but this is how they have been for many years now, and perhaps now this has brought about a change in their bodies? like i was asking, what are the affects of high cortisol if so? because they have grown up to 10cm larger over the years and as said, never had disease. and evidently high cortisol would have some sort of negative implications? so in the end, what do we define as a healthy fish? if this fish has the same immunity, resistance, energy, growth rates etc as other loach, then how would we define that the water temperature is impacting them negatively? and yes, although stress is difficult to detect and identify, utlimately it surfaces in some sort of visible symptom. hence the reason why stress is considered bad.
so then, is it possible that at first it was stressful? but after so long they have adapted ?(as suggested above). and also, if i start heating the water, wont that cause more stress because of the change of conditions?
once again, i am NOT saying anyone is wrong, and i am not claiming to be all-knowing and correct, i am just putting forward alternative suggestions and possibilities and asking your evaluations.
and also, original posts simply said something along the lines of: 'fish for sale able to live in unheated water'. but have since edited it cus decided to take down the ad because as someone above pointed out, no one would buy due to this.
anyway, still does not answer my question that would this environment be causing substantial amounts of stress despite this being the environment for many years? temperature is approx 75F. could they have slowly adapted/survival of the fittest style? ie could it have an inborn resistance stronger than other fish geared to a wider temperature range? and then over time adapted to this environment? fair enough hundreds of years of knowledge, but once again, not comparing to natural selection, but just an example that individual organisms are able to adapt and respond to environments. perhaps for example Siberian Huskys, with ancestors originating from the siberian arctic, they have a thickly furred double coat im pretty sure their optimal temperatures are preferably colder environments even to this day, with that heavy coat, yet people keep them as housepets in all sorts of temperatures in various parts of the world. yet this is not labelled as mistreatment, because it is accepted that they can adapt their comfort zones accordingly over time
i understand what u say about the workplace thing, im not trying to cause controversy. its just when i put up the ad, some guy attacked me talking of mistreatment and obese dogs, ofcourse, no one responds well to accusation and condemnation. i have never been part of a forum before, and was rather shocked to be blamed for 'animal cruelty' on a first post. perhaps it was my mistake to list it, but accusations of mistreatment are bluntly and overtly pointing figures saying 'you dont care about your pets'. at least now i am recieving some proper advice so i can be more informed on options and actions i may need to take. i mean apart from that one post directed at that one person who attacked me, im actually now asking for opinions and advice hopefully in a discussion rather than debate. like i said, maybe i am wrong maybe im not. everyone has a different point of view.
they have never had Ich or any disease and their lives are certainly not in jeopardy i am sure, but i have recognised what Dutch has said about stress being difficult to detect in fish. Perhaps it was wrong to keep them in unheated water in the first place, i can accept that, but this is how they have been for many years now, and perhaps now this has brought about a change in their bodies? like i was asking, what are the affects of high cortisol if so? because they have grown up to 10cm larger over the years and as said, never had disease. and evidently high cortisol would have some sort of negative implications? so in the end, what do we define as a healthy fish? if this fish has the same immunity, resistance, energy, growth rates etc as other loach, then how would we define that the water temperature is impacting them negatively? and yes, although stress is difficult to detect and identify, utlimately it surfaces in some sort of visible symptom. hence the reason why stress is considered bad.
so then, is it possible that at first it was stressful? but after so long they have adapted ?(as suggested above). and also, if i start heating the water, wont that cause more stress because of the change of conditions?
once again, i am NOT saying anyone is wrong, and i am not claiming to be all-knowing and correct, i am just putting forward alternative suggestions and possibilities and asking your evaluations.
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Botia Robert
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Hi Lisa, Welcolme to Loaches onLine. It would be nice to know roughly what part of the world you are from. Also I am not sure exactly what type of Loach(es) you have, I am assuming you have Clown Loach(es).
It is appreciated you are thinking outside the square and considering things such as evolution etc. However can we push that to the side for a minute and concentrate on the fish(es).
Firstly the fact is Clowns prefer tempretures about 28C to 30C (82F). Could you just put a heater in your tank and gradually get the tempreture up to this range please. This is for the good of the fish. Fish can tolerate gradual increases in tempreture a lot better than rapid decreases.
ICH is a serious problem for fish and even more serious for Loaches due to their very small schales. It is good that your fish have never had diseases but you can help them be even more resilient if you increase the tempreture to the prefered range.
Also can you provide more details of your set up? There are lots of things you can do to provide the best conditions for your Clown Loaches and eliminate "stress" and they will thank you for it.
It is appreciated you are thinking outside the square and considering things such as evolution etc. However can we push that to the side for a minute and concentrate on the fish(es).
Firstly the fact is Clowns prefer tempretures about 28C to 30C (82F). Could you just put a heater in your tank and gradually get the tempreture up to this range please. This is for the good of the fish. Fish can tolerate gradual increases in tempreture a lot better than rapid decreases.
ICH is a serious problem for fish and even more serious for Loaches due to their very small schales. It is good that your fish have never had diseases but you can help them be even more resilient if you increase the tempreture to the prefered range.
Also can you provide more details of your set up? There are lots of things you can do to provide the best conditions for your Clown Loaches and eliminate "stress" and they will thank you for it.
How long have you had them? Apparently they have prospered in your care. However, before someone could say whether or not they would be interested in your loaches, they might want to have some idea of where they are...
Also, evolutionary/adaptive discussions aside, healthy fish are healthy fish. If you've been fortunate enough to keep clowns long term at 75F I would be interested to know more about your set up. What size tank? What inhabitants, etc. etc.
Also, evolutionary/adaptive discussions aside, healthy fish are healthy fish. If you've been fortunate enough to keep clowns long term at 75F I would be interested to know more about your set up. What size tank? What inhabitants, etc. etc.
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Thanks lisa.
So, you have 3 clowns. One is about 6.5 inches, the other two are about 4.5?
Why are you wanting to re-home them? Outgrown the tank or are you looking to change fish, or take down the tank?
So, you have 3 clowns. One is about 6.5 inches, the other two are about 4.5?
Why are you wanting to re-home them? Outgrown the tank or are you looking to change fish, or take down the tank?
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