Holy Nirtates

[Olesja]

Okay, so after getting a bigger house for my loaches (http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24921), I was hoping to have a better handle on nitrates, but I think they creeping up on me again... (sigh)

Anybody has an opinion on how reliable API test are? I am getting 20-40 reading using API tests vs. 5 or less reading on both Nutrafin and Elos test kits. And, given my ongoing water maintenance I don't see how they keep staying in 20 range...

Tank maintenance: at least 10-15% daily... with bigger, 20-30% once a week
Filters: Eheim + wet/dry - bi-weekly cleaning on alternating weeks
Substrate: pool filter sand, "vacuum" every other day
Plants: XL anubias (a lot of them), haven't added any fast growing plants with my clowns... but considering adding couple huge sword mother plants and hope they won't get eaten over night...
Tenants: 3 large clowns (8-9") + 4 medium (5-6") + 8 torpedo barbs (2-3") + 2 pairs of adult bushinose plecos + 5 ottos + 5 congo tetras.

I am hesitant to add any de-nitrates or nitra-zorb until I know Nitrates are clearly in 5-range, are there more reliable tests I can get? Any suggestions?

Can I be over-populated already? I had high hopes of growing my clown group to 12 or so... (3 clowny babies are living/growing in Qtank for over a month, waiting to join the family)

Thanks a lot for any input!

[astex]

Have you checked the expiration date on the test kit? You can google how to read the code on the bottle to tell the expiration date.

[Olesja]

Hi astex, yes, all tests are up to date, just confirmed expiration dates.
Also, with API tests I have read comments that bottle #2 needs to be really vigorously shaken for more then 1 minute... I have done that as well, same result

[astex]

20 isn't horrible, just not ideal. Put in the swords, especially if you have or can get one of the big mother plants. I would consider potting it (if the aesthetic doesn't bother you) so you can rescue it easily if it becomes loach food. If you plant it, I'd put some rocks around the base until it's established the root system. Once they start growing, they can really take over as long as you keep root feeding them with plant tabs. I've never had the larger loaches, but my little ones have only put holes in the leaves, but not actually destroy the leaf. Also maybe get some wisteria or hornwort. Both can be floaters, are fast growing, and really suck up any nitrates/nitrites from the water. I've not had any fish eat hornwort (pond plant) and it grows really fast.

[Loachloach]

Nitrate tests are the most unreliable in general. Then on another hand it's not the high nitrates that affect fish but the high ammonia/high bioload that led to those high nitrates. Easy floating plants/surface plants is a great idea. As for monitoring water quality, TDS meters are great, cheap and digital, taking only seconds. I know that when the TDS(total dissolved solids) has risen quite a bit I am on the wrong path with whatever I am doing with that tank. They are not the perfect tool, but one of the best and easy and fast to test, also the value given includes not just nitrates but all other sorts of build up minerals that can be harmful and also dissolved organics to an extent so if one isn't doing enough water changes, tank is overstocked, etc.. the TDS tends to rise quite steadily until one day the fish can take no more.
So point is, don't worry about nitrates, you can't measure them properly with a home test and it's only fooling you.
By the way, a TDS meter is cheap enough to buy, around 20 quid here.

[Olesja]

Hi Loachloach,

I can't disagree with TDS usefulness, it's very handy and easy to use tool that I've been relying on for a while as a rough water quality reference and as a guide for my water changes. And, especially when acclimating new fish, my little loaches that came from LFS have been in water with TDS over 2000 (!?!) due to salt added.

But, here is my example: water with high nitrates + low ph/kh/gh might have the same TDS as water with no nitrates with medium values of ph/kh/gh...
(1) My tank had TDS of 170-180 with 6.0 ph, untraceable kh, gh around 2 and Nitrates in 20-40 range
(2) My tap water TDS is in 70 range with 6.8 ph, kh = 2, gh = 2
(3) My prepared water for water change TDS = 170 with ph 7.4, kh = 5, gh = 2 (with added prime, baking soda and Seachem equilibrium)
That's why I am monitoring Nitrates and other basic tests to make water parameters are in desired range...
My understanding is that although (1) and (3) have the same TDS, (1) will be more detrimental to plants and fish health in the long run...
And also very damaging to nitrifying bacteria.

So, if I make sure kh/gh/ph stays stable, I can rely more on TDS as a guide for my water quality and Nitrates levels...

[Loachloach]

(1) My tank had TDS of 170-180 with 6.0 ph, untraceable kh, gh around 2 and Nitrates in 20-40 range
(2) My tap water TDS is in 70 range with 6.8 ph, kh = 2, gh = 2
(3) My prepared water for water change TDS = 170 with ph 7.4, kh = 5, gh = 2 (with added prime, baking soda and Seachem equilibrium)

I didn't elaborate on the TDS meter. My starting point for example is my tap water which has almost no nitrAtes for example(according to the water company and even my home test). Based on that reading, I normally know what's the "healthy" state of TDS in my tank normally and don't let that creep up gradually and create a vast difference between tap and tank.

From the info(1,2,3) above you've given, your starting point is the prepared water with TDS of 170(3).
You are saying that the tank has a TDS of 170-180 normally. Well, it's simple maths that you can't have more than 10ppm nitrates in that case(170ppm prepared water and tank water reaches a TDS of max 180ppm?) Therefore your nitrate test is wrong or your TDS meter needs calibrattion, or your tap water contains high nitrates to start with(which is unlikely providing it has a TDS of just 70ppm)

Anybody has an opinion on how reliable API test are? I am getting 20-40 reading using API tests vs. 5 or less reading on both Nutrafin and Elos test kits. And, given my ongoing water maintenance I don't see how they keep staying in 20 range...

So based on the above and all the previous info you've given, your nitrates are probably indeed in the range of 1-10ppm max depending on the day and the API test in this case is possibly the wrong one. But as I said, you don't need them if you've got a TDS meter as I tried to explain above, as long as your TDS meter is calibrated per manufacturer's specs. And even if your tap water contains some nitrates that affect the nitrate reading, these are harmless as they are not the product of organics-ammonia to nitrite to nitrate conversion.

[plaalye]

(1) My tank had TDS of 170-180 with 6.0 ph, untraceable kh, gh around 2 and Nitrates in 20-40 range
(2) My tap water TDS is in 70 range with 6.8 ph, kh = 2, gh = 2
(3) My prepared water for water change TDS = 170 with ph 7.4, kh = 5, gh = 2 (with added prime, baking soda and Seachem equilibrium)

I didn't elaborate on the TDS meter. My starting point for example is my tap water which has almost no nitrAtes for example(according to the water company and even my home test). Based on that reading, I normally know what's the "healthy" state of TDS in my tank normally and don't let that creep up gradually and create a vast difference between tap and tank.

From the info(1,2,3) above you've given, your starting point is the prepared water with TDS of 170(3).
You are saying that the tank has a TDS of 170-180 normally. Well, it's simple maths that you can't have more than 10ppm nitrates in that case(170ppm prepared water and tank water reaches a TDS of max 180ppm?) Therefore your nitrate test is wrong or your TDS meter needs calibrattion, or your tap water contains high nitrates to start with(which is unlikely providing it has a TDS of just 70ppm)

Anybody has an opinion on how reliable API test are? I am getting 20-40 reading using API tests vs. 5 or less reading on both Nutrafin and Elos test kits. And, given my ongoing water maintenance I don't see how they keep staying in 20 range...

So based on the above and all the previous info you've given, your nitrates are probably indeed in the range of 1-10ppm max depending on the day and the API test in this case is possibly the wrong one. But as I said, you don't need them if you've got a TDS meter as I tried to explain above, as long as your TDS meter is calibrated per manufacturer's specs. And even if your tap water contains some nitrates that affect the nitrate reading, these are harmless as they are not the product of organics-ammonia to nitrite to nitrate conversion.

Can you please explain your thinking here. My TDS meter measures conductivity. How are using this to quantify nitrates? I've found no correlation between TDS & Nitrate levels in my tanks.

[Diana]

When you do a water change does the API test report an accurate change in NO3?

For example, if you test 20 ppm NO3 before a water change.
Do 25% water change.
Test NO3 should read 15 ppm.
If one of the other tests says 8 ppm before then it ought to read 6 after.

Trust the test that does that.

Problem: What really IS 25% water change? Gotta know pretty accurately the real volume of the system. Do not go by the manufacturer's name for the tank. With substrate, there is less volume, but the filter (canister or HOB) adds volume.

Another test: Get some KNO3, sold as a plant fertilizer, stump remover and other things.
Add 1/8 tsp to 5 gallons of water. Test should read 20 ppm. (actually 21.06 ppm, but the tests are not that accurate)

[Loachloach]

Can you please explain your thinking here. My TDS meter measures conductivity. How are using this to quantify nitrates? I've found no correlation between TDS & Nitrate levels in my tanks.

Nitrates are NO3− ions. Conductivity is the water's ability to carry electrical current in relation to the amount of ions. The more ions, the higher the conductivity. So when nitrates increase, TDS increases.

[Olesja]

Thanks everybody for comments,
With testing Nitrates before and after water change, I do see the decrease with all 3 tests I am using (API, Nutrafin and Elos).
But API is harder to measure because it goes from 10 to 20 to 40 ... So unless I am making 50% water change, it will be hard to quantify correctly.

With my water changes, I usually go by measurement from top water level to sand line, which is almost even 20 inches for me, so 5 inch water drop is about 25% which equates to about 50 gallons...

I will try to run test with KNO3, that Diana suggested. I'll let you know how it goes.

[plaalye]

Can you please explain your thinking here. My TDS meter measures conductivity. How are using this to quantify nitrates? I've found no correlation between TDS & Nitrate levels in my tanks.

Nitrates are NO3− ions. Conductivity is the water's ability to carry electrical current in relation to the amount of ions. The more ions, the higher the conductivity. So when nitrates increase, TDS increases.

I don't want to sidetrack your nitrate thread but I think you're mistaken. Not all ions are equal. Nitrates in my tanks can go through the roof without affecting TDS readings. Have a read here.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-04/rhf/feature/

[Loachloach]

Can you please explain your thinking here. My TDS meter measures conductivity. How are using this to quantify nitrates? I've found no correlation between TDS & Nitrate levels in my tanks.

Nitrates are NO3− ions. Conductivity is the water's ability to carry electrical current in relation to the amount of ions. The more ions, the higher the conductivity. So when nitrates increase, TDS increases.

I don't want to sidetrack your nitrate thread but I think you're mistaken. Not all ions are equal. Nitrates in my tanks can go through the roof without affecting TDS readings. Have a read here.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-04/rhf/feature/

You are mistaken mate. Read the article again. "TDS meters will only detect mobile charged ions." Nitrates are mobile charged ions(negatively charged). "They will not detect any neutral (uncharged) compounds." Again, nitrates are negatively charged, not neutral and definately affect TDS. You can't know how much of the difference is nitrates but you get an idea how much they can't be based on change of TDS.
Home nitrate tests are the most unreliable of all, it's a known fact. And nitrates themselves don't affect the fish, so why bother testing for nitrates? Nitrate being a problem is outdated info. It's the level of converted ammonia/organics, TDS, etc...that affect fish.

On another hand, if you are referring to this specifically "There are differences between the conductivity of the different ions" then of course there's a difference, you can't compare a calcium (Ca++) to nitrate (NO3-) because if a tank has lets say 140ppm calcium in TDS, then you'll be cutting the water with a knife and a hammer metaphorically speaking. So yes, certain charged compounds will affect the TDS more but that isn't to say nitrates don't affect it because they certainly do. Even fertilizer nitrates from a bottle immediately affect the TDS, increasing it.

[Ardillakilla]

http://www2.amersol.edu.pe/hs/sciences/ ... tivity.htm

http://www.aqua-magica.com/water-change.html

[Ardillakilla]

I am hesitant to add any de-nitrates or nitra-zorb until I know Nitrates are clearly in 5-range, are there more reliable tests I can get? Any suggestions?

Hach DR 890 using the chromotropic acid method. You may be able to find a veterinary hospital that does water testing with a spectrophotometer and avoid having to invest in one.

Can I be over-populated already? I had high hopes of growing my clown group to 12 or so... (3 clowny babies are living/growing in Qtank for over a month, waiting to join the family)

In a 220 gal tank? Doubtful unless your water supply has unusual levels of nitrate in it.