VIDEO--skinny clown--UPDATE-4 MONTHS-1Year

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mikev
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by mikev » Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:02 am

Loachloach wrote:Really nice and healthy loaches. Did you treat them with de-wormers as a preventative when you got them or do you treat on per need basis?
Treating per need is not a good idea -- this means letting the disease reveal itself.... much nicer is not to encounter it at all.

Ironically, in this case I did not have to think about de-worming at all.... the best four I got for free, they had a pretty bad ich at the store and it looked like they were going to die rather than be sold.... so I got them, treated Ich with flubendazole at 72F as an experiment (the logic was to slow down the parasite), they were clean within 3 days and de-worming was a bonus.
Though my favourite fish are still corydoras which I have a soft spot for but it's only a behavioural preference, not anything to do with how much I care for the fish.
Not sure how many corys I have here anymore... a couple of hundred at least, in 20 species or so.... cory are pretty good ersatz loaches.... :P

Bas Pels
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by Bas Pels » Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:39 am

mikev wrote: Not sure how many corys I have here anymore... a couple of hundred at least, in 20 species or so.... cory are pretty good ersatz loaches.... :P
Ironically, I started appreciating loaches as ersatz Corydoras :lol:

Loachloach
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by Loachloach » Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:02 am

Treating per need is not a good idea -- this means letting the disease reveal itself.... much nicer is not to encounter it at all.
This is subjective to an extent. You presume there's a disease. I presume there isn't one :D and I presume stress and wrong environmental conditions are the major cause of most common fish diseases, and the one looking after the fish is the major factor playing a role in most fish deaths :lol: which includes not treating or treating with medications/poisons. One can be right or wrong in both scenarios.

But even hexamita, since it's been on my table these years, only manifests in stressed fish, others live a full life span unaffected. You may be lucky enough to treat with the right meds to eliminate a primary disease, but the only way to prevent secondary opportunistic diseases is by looking after the fish correctly. No amount of meds and disinfection will do that. A lot of meds just reduce the load of pathogens affecting the fish, thus helping the fish immune system take over, that applies to parasites too. 100% elimination of all pathogens is impossible, even bleach can't do that, heating up the tank to 60C maybe for most... :roll:

I keep inverts of several kinds and planted tanks which rely on microbial diversity and I can't just dump meds as a preventative because any med causes long term havoc on the environment, even though invisible to the naked eye. Pathogens have their own micro enemies in fish tanks and if you tip the balance, either can proliferate.
I don't keep a spare bare tank for quarantine as I buy fish every 2 years or even less often than that. I first started keeping fish as a kid catching them from local rivers. I don't think I ever used meds back then, there weren't meds available to buy locally anyway but I can't remember having major issues. I mostly ended up killing the fish myself by accident one way or another. :wink:

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mikev
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by mikev » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:07 am

This is subjective to an extent. You presume there's a disease. I presume there isn't one
Not quite. I know there is a disease. Out of my original four cubs (bought small babies at 1", before this group) two developed it. One was classical skinny, the other was non-growing (and eventually succumbed to a bacterial infection). At the time I did not treat -- simply was not aware yet just how bad the situation is.

This is not pleasant to watch and given that there is a simple way to avoid the suffering I would not. And given the large number of tanks here I cannot afford monitoring every tank and every fish, it is just easier to know that one ugly potential problem is not going to occur with my fish.

Loachloach
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by Loachloach » Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:29 pm

I tried to see if they sell flubendazole here. The only med they sell that contain flubendazole is called Kusuri Wormer Plus. I've been reading online, people haven't had great success with it especially for flukes because the recommended dose on the med is very low(we've got some funny regulations around here)

What's the dose/concentration one needs to use as a general de-wormer?

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mikev
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by mikev » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:37 pm

Kusuri Wormer Plus is flubendazole, actually slightly better than Harrison's.

The med is not designed for flukes, indeed this has to do with required higher concentration, but not with regulations in any way, more with basic chemistry. It is possible to use it against flukes successfully by replicating the scheme used by "Fluke Tabs".... if interested, research this further.

Loachloach
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by Loachloach » Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:57 pm

Thanks Mike. Good to know. It will be one of my per need meds I'll get if I have doubts with any fish. I really need to use that microscope more. I can get poop samples from the platies but I've never seen the clown loaches poop :roll:

I am thinking Fran has used fenbendazole medicated food, then prazi and now metro. This about covers all the range of internal parasites. I have my fingers and toes crossed for the loach to recover soon.
I'd say keep an eye on him for bacterial infections afterwards as I've read they can appear as a result of the parasites detaching/dying but with clean water and little stress that may not be the case.

If he's acting better after the prazi and metro, then it's probably working on him.

If you have nitrate issues, them being the result of fish load/food, have you tried external plants?

I have a cory tank with lots of emersed plants. Over the years I was swapping filters around, ended up with one filter on the below tank. Then one day the ceramic shaft of the impeller broke and I had to wait a week and a half for a new one. The tank ran with 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites for all that period while I was waiting. And not just this, I have 0 nitrates if I let it be. I dose weekly massive amounts of inorganic nitrate in it. The idea is one day to get my clown loach tank like this but I am getting an 8f tank and then I'll do it this way.

Image

FranM
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by FranM » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:53 pm

This is your tank, Loach? I love it.

I think I have too much of a bioload in there. I have five large silver dollars in a 55 gallon and I've been to several LFS's asking if someone would take them in as their own, not to sell, but no one wants them. So the Nitrazorb works to control nitrate. I have two filters running. I also have two groups of lucky bamboo and two bunches of golden pothos. They've never really taken off until recently when I got the PH higher. I've had them out of the tank during treatments. Once I remove the Prazi then the plants will go back in.

Thanks, Loach. I was really hoping the plants would be the answer.

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mikev
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by mikev » Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:23 am

Two things: regarding rehoming fish: often the best way is to do this through a local club...join and see if there is someone who has the space and the skills to take care of the fish.

regarding
I am thinking Fran has used fenbendazole medicated food, then prazi and now metro. This about covers all the range of internal parasites.
Of the three it is prazi that probably was effective. Metro is really not applicable, and Fenbendazole (in theory as wide spectrum as flubendazole) has a problem with being used in food.... there is a darn good reason why Fenbendazole is used for cats and dogs but not for most other animals. Research this if interested....

Loachloach
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by Loachloach » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:12 am

They've never really taken off until recently when I got the PH higher.
Yes, it's one of my other tanks. It can look better than this but I don't do much in it right now.
Are your plants under a good amount of light? You need good light to grow them fast enough to mop nutrients.
Your may have lacked certain nutrients too. How did you get the Ph higher? Maybe they had lack of Mg and Ca...Emersed plants have unlimited CO2 so the only stop is light and nutrients, the latter shows deficiency signs if lacking.
Mine need supplemental dosing as the bioload is not big enough for the plants.
Ph needs to stay stable. Fluctuating or dropping ph is a sign of acidification which is normal in fish tanks due to the processing of the bioload. Water changes, plants, purigen can all help with keeping the conditions stable.
So the Nitrazorb works to control nitrate.
The best usually is mopping the ammonia before it converts to nitrate but that's hard to achieve without plants. The nitrate itself is not an issue, it's the host of chemical processes that take place while ammonia and organics are processed in a tank, which alters the chemical composition of the other in a bad way and affects the fish well being. Nitrate is just a measure of what has happened prior to that but they hardly have any negative effect on fish on it's own, and as well, it's very hard to measure accurately so what the tests show you could be way off either direction. I don't even ever bother measure nitrates ever unless I am experimenting. My plants tell me when I am out of it. Have you tried Seachem Purigen instead? It takes up organics directly rather than nitrates which will lower the produced nitrate in the end as the organics won't have to go through the whole nitrification process and others.

and Fenbendazole (in theory as wide spectrum as flubendazole) has a problem with being used in food...
All I've read about fenbendazole is that it's used in food, not in the water column. It causes head standing and death in discus fish if used in the water column. At least that's what I've read when I read about it. And I did research when I had to use it myself. It didn't do anything for hex for me, at least not fast enough.
Metro is really not applicable
I have to disagree. We don't know that and if it were me I'd certainly treat for Hex too. To me that clown looks like a long time hex suit case but then again, I haven't dealt with other intestinal worm infestations and they certainly seem to cause similar effect. So it's just an educated guess.
However, I would not have used metro to treat hex. It didn't work for me one bit on a heavy infested fish. Epsom salt soaked food did way better and fish don't reject the food, plus it's way less likely to have any negative effect on any fish and can be used in combination with any treatment. There's no adverse effects reported about it at all.

FranM
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by FranM » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:36 pm

I've contacted the Rhode Island Tropical Fish Society, or at least have attempted to a few times to no avail. That was my first course of action, Mike. Perhaps I should contact CT or MA. I feel Rhode Island has no interest in me at all.
Last edited by FranM on Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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mikev
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by mikev » Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:05 pm

Perhaps BAS, or if this is too far for you ask BAS for other clubs.
http://www.bostonaquariumsociety.org/

FranM
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by FranM » Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:16 pm

Wow, Mike, I thought I was quoting you, but I ended up sharing a link to a new doctor's office I want to go to. Lol. Sorry about that.

I will contact Boston. I'm attached to the silver dollars. They've come a long way with their skittish behavior. I wish I could get the BIG TANK, but I have family members against it. I do want them to go to a good home or else we'll all just manage. I really want the loaches the happiest but again, I just can't dump the silver dollars off.

Thank you for the suggestion.

Fran

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mikev
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by mikev » Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:43 pm

Never mind the link, just edit your old post and delete it.

I really dislike to give up any fish that has been around for a while. If you can keep them, do. If they absolutely need a larger tank and you cannot provide them one, then it is sadly better to part with them.... you know what needs to be done best.

FranM
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by FranM » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:56 pm

mikev wrote:I really dislike to give up any fish that has been around for a while. If you can keep them, do. If they absolutely need a larger tank and you cannot provide them one, then it is sadly better to part with them.... you know what needs to be done best.
I don't want to part with them either. The Nitrazorb is doing its part, the silvers seem ok, and the loaches, except for the one healing, are ok too. I'm not putting the big tank out of my head, but I know it's not something that's going to happen any time soon.

Thank you for your support and advice.

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