VIDEO--skinny clown--UPDATE-4 MONTHS-1Year

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Loachloach
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by Loachloach » Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:27 pm

mikev wrote:What bothers ME in this thread is the very first sentence

It seems to link Ich outbreak and/or treatment to the Skinny condition and indicate rapid loss of weight rather than gradual as more usual. Thus asking for clarifications, we may be actually dealing with something totally different here. (Example: gill damage due to Ick-->oxygen deficiency-->apathy-->... )
We've got to wait on an answer from FranM I suppose. From the information given, this is what I gather.

The the clown loach is the pre-existing fish showing the only visual symptoms of the disease, and also had the condition years ago, meaning it might never have been eradicated, his immune system might have been fighting it on all along.

One brings ich, possibly a secondary infection of some sort too, and the fish rapidly deteriorates as it was not healthy to start with.
That's why I thought hex as one of the conditions because I know no other common "parasite" that a fish can be infected with for years without visual symptoms.
What is the incubation time for other flat and round worms?

Maybe if the timeframe is established, one might narrow the problems.
Also, it's not unlikely a bacterial infection to be involved on top of parasitic if the symptoms have developed really fast.

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mikev
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by mikev » Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:59 pm

What is the incubation time for other flat and round worms?
Very short but totally irrelevant in case of indirect worms. The correct question is how long after the infection occurred one sees symptoms. This can be many months, probably years. This is consistent with the lifespan of tapeworms often being several years. For roundworms, years are possible too in some species (lots of those -- nematodes is a huge group). Flat worms are not some much of interest.

Loachloach
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by Loachloach » Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:16 pm

Thanks. That's useful.
I have just one question, possibly the place is not here... Is it possible lets say that my clown loaches have had worms since I got them 3 years ago without showing visible symptoms, at least not yet? Do you recall any names of nematodes that are most common I can research? I certainly don't want to end up one day with a skinny loach.

FranM
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by FranM » Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:34 pm

Oh where to begin!

I'm disappointed you felt the video quality wasn't good. I uploaded with my iphone/ipad and I felt the quality was very good and the fish was very visible. But, maybe on a computer the quality is reduced so I came onto the computer to load the video and it wouldn't load! Then I went on photobucket to view the video and it's not on the computer, but it's on the ipad photobucket and I was logged in both places. Needless to say I'm frustrated over that!

Loachloach has it pretty correct. This particular clown had the skinny thing some years back; probably due to prolonged raised nitrate levels. It was cured with the Jungle medicated food that they don't sell anymore. I'm sure the skinny thing is this particular clown's weak spot. It manifested itself again when the tank came down with ich. The loach never showed spots though, but the mouth was open and it was lethargic and the there was some heavy breathing. So I started to think gill flukes especially when the Rid Ich helped, but didn't solve the problem (meaning the Rid Ich stopped the flashing but not the lethargy). That's when I thought Prazi for flukes. But in the meantime, I felt it was an internal worm or parasite and that's why I tried the Fenben. food. It didn't do a hell of a lot. But the Prazi made a tremendous difference in the behavior of the clown. It is still to this moment constantly on the move again and it does appear to be gaining weight. I decided to load it up on frozen and fresh foods for a couple days after day 1 of Przi, but I didn't see any marked weight gain. So I felt I may have a dual issue and that is why I'm feeding metrodiz. flakes. I think it's making a difference.

I hope this explanation helps in getting a feel for the history of the clown. I wish I had a photo; it was a challenge to get a non blurry still, that's why I thought the video was the perfect option. Did anyone else see a blurry video?

I love all the input, thank you. I will add again that Nitrazorb is wonderful in keeping the nitrates in control. PH has been stable too. I had VERY low PH in tank but neutral in tap (after 24 - 48 hrs). Filters are kept clean; water changes actually get nitrates down to 5 now while using Nitrazorb. It's a great thing! Been using the Nitrazorb since late January.

Fran

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mikev
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by mikev » Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:39 pm

for loach*2:

I'd think in three years the disease will show up or if there was an infection, the worm will likely die... but this does not help you totally: you are likely to buy more loaches in three years and they may be infected too. Thus, preventative treatment is a very good idea -- it will almost entirely eliminate future cases.

As for the species.... come'n, we cannot often identify wild caught fish, don't for a moment expect that we have anywhere complete classification of worms! I recall years ago someone treated large wild caught loaches with levamisole --- one advantage here, after levamisole worms usually are expelled intact --- and posted some photos of the "harvest". A variety of shapes... and perhaps a good chance for a scientist to discover new species.

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mikev
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by mikev » Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:47 pm

Fran,

in general one uses video to show problems with behavior and still photos for anything else.

too complicated.... I think the key is here:
But the Prazi made a tremendous difference in the behavior of the clown. It is still to this moment constantly on the move again and it does appear to be gaining weight. I decided to load it up on frozen and fresh foods for a couple days after day 1 of Przi, but I didn't see any marked weight gain.
If it is gaining weight, perhaps Prazi solved the problem (often does) and you should just continue feeding it well.... but most certainly one does not expect big results in a few days. Weeks or months of slow improvement is more likely.

I'd not use any random meds at this point... flubendazole still is probably a good idea --- just to cover the possibility that some worms were killed and some not --- but not the rest. Just feed well and watch the fish. Hopefully it will get better, if he does not, then 3 rounds of flubendazole week apart and see if this helps.

Loachloach
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by Loachloach » Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:56 pm

I saw the video from the last link you posted and I thought it's pretty clear how the clown looks. I had to play with photobucket to get it to load though, which ended up asking me to download an mp4 movie and I am not sure others managed to get it. The attempt to imbed the video here was unsuccessful however :lol:

You posted this link:

http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/franm ... f.mp4.html

which when loaded brings me to photobucket. The video doesn't load straight though. I need to copy the "direct" link on the right side and paste it into a new browser window. Then it asks me to open or save an mp4 file which I can then open with my player and watch. I presume some others may not have been able to view it if they didn't go that path.

As for nematodes, I presumed the symptoms show up in 3-4 months, at least the most famous types I know do but then again I don't know that much. The more I read, the more I get scared about fish diseases. It's sometimes impossible to find out the cause and cure, and do that on time.
I have a microscope and have looked at just at a couple of fish that died with no cause and I saw nothing at all. One needs quite the education to know what they are looking for. :roll:

Loachloach
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by Loachloach » Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:00 pm

Weeks or months of slow improvement is more likely
I certainly can attest to that in the case of my sick "molly" :lol:

But slight changes were visible straight away, the fish started gaining weight, kind of "rounding up". Full recovery was maybe 6 months as mine was very emaciated when I started treatment. A less emaciated fish may not take that long.

FranM
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by FranM » Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:55 pm

I'm still going to feed the Metro and the Prazi was a godsend. Then I will just bulk up with reg food. I guess I was looking for an extra fast result, especially after seeing the positive effects of Prazi which I'd never used before. I hope by this time next month all is completely back to normal if not better than before.

Loach, glad your platy has done so well and thanks for pics. Thanks for your input, Mike.

Fran

Loachloach
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by Loachloach » Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:24 pm

Good luck Fran. Let us know how the fish progresses. Fingers crossed he gets better fast and you cure him once and for all.
mikev wrote:for loach*2:

I'd think in three years the disease will show up or if there was an infection, the worm will likely die... but this does not help you totally: you are likely to buy more loaches in three years and they may be infected too. Thus, preventative treatment is a very good idea -- it will almost entirely eliminate future cases.
.
Thanks Mike. That makes me feel a bit better. Right now I start to think my fish have all sorts of diseases :lol:
The new loach will stay in quarantine for a while as I want to bulk him up and I won't have a chance in with the others so I hope something will show up if in the mean time if he carries it. I don't even know if he's wild caught or farm bred. I must ask next time.

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mikev
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by mikev » Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:34 pm

Very welcome.

I'd not feed Metro at this point. Another round of Prazi if you feel like doing *something*, and watch.

And given that Platy's metabolism is much faster than botine, don't expect positive signs too soon. If the fish is actively feeding and not getting worse, this is a sufficiently good sign already short term.
I don't even know if he's wild caught or farm bred.
Most smaller ones are farm bred, but a farm in Indonesia is open to the wild, so you still get the parasites. Farms in Florida (they do this now) are probably safer.

FranM
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by FranM » Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:51 pm

Mike, I actually began a second dose of Prazi on Friday. Next Friday will be the big water change day again and carbon and then I hope I'm done with treatments.

Speaking of large platies, I was in an LFS called Uncle Ned's Fish Factory in Massachusetts. The place was dump looking and fleas in the shop, however, the fish were the most healthy and impressive I've seen. The platies and swords, which I don't get excited for, were huge and gorgeous! He had good sized clowns, discus were perfect, etc. but I've never been moved by platies and swords like I was in this place. Lol

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mikev
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by mikev » Sun Apr 26, 2015 7:51 pm

The place was dump looking and fleas in the shop,
Rumored to be a high quality shop.... well... fish is what matters, not the rest. Platies et al are certainly not my kind of fish.

Regarding the recovery time: here is an illustration, the dir contains shots of my kubs, now nicely fat for several years. These are of course wild caught and I got them already large and with no skinny disease... but they had something else: no fat on the head, bones stick out. This is actually not a disease but a common phenomenon with w/c loaches... simply not enough food to be fat and tissue on the head is way less important than muscle.. so during lean times it is used up. Well, it took 6 months to get their heads nice and round, and this is with no disease involved.

Loachloach
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by Loachloach » Sun Apr 26, 2015 8:39 pm

Really nice and healthy loaches. Did you treat them with de-wormers as a preventative when you got them or do you treat on per need basis?
Platies et al are certainly not my kind of fish.
Platies weren't my initial choice either, neither were my clown loaches, nor my common pleco but I've got to accommodate the family interests :( so that's what I have to deal with for now and look after them while they are in my care as it seems most like the look of fish only, not the care :lol: The truth is, now I quite like them all. I think I'd get attached to a fly if I have to take care of it. I am the type of person that has a problem taking snails from one tank to feed the clown loaches in the other and I don't do it despite having the opportunity. I feel sorry for the snails :roll: So how would I care if I look after common platies and not some fancy imports...it makes no difference to me. Though my favourite fish are still corydoras which I have a soft spot for but it's only a behavioural preference, not anything to do with how much I care for the fish.

FranM
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Re: VIDEO--skinny clown

Post by FranM » Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:29 pm

mikev wrote:
The place was dump looking and fleas in the shop,
Rumored to be a high quality shop.... well... fish is what matters, not the rest.
Yes, regardless of the fleas...and dust....and many uncovered tanks, I really can't say enough about the quality of the fish. EVERYTHING looked good. Goldfish and Koi were spectacular and again, all the fish were great. Expensive though. He wanted 3.50 each for baby Rasboras, for example. I thought it was a lot. But again the fish were so healthy it's probably worth the cost.

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