I need a lot of questions answered about my current stocking

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uncclewis
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Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 8:56 pm

I need a lot of questions answered about my current stocking

Post by uncclewis » Fri May 13, 2016 3:23 pm

I need a couple of questions answered.

I have a 72.5 gallon aquarium that has about 20 1.5-3 inch clown loaches in it with 2 adult angel fish (I am going to rehome this aggressive pair soon). I am currently treating them for a whole host of diseases. I got most of them from petsmart and they looked sad/bad... I have treated for worms and still I have a couple with skinny disease. I do not know the cause. I feed blood worms every few days and pellets and flake daily.

My water conditions: my tap water has 2 PPM of ammonia and 10-15 PPM of nitrate, therefore, this goes into my tank. My tap Ph is 9.2 and TDS is 300ish. I have to add a buffer to my water (kh is extremely low) it neutralizes the ph too -to about 7.2. It brings my TDS to 400-500 range before water changes. Therefore, I know my fish are then in hard water...

I am going to get a 125 gallon fish tank when they get a little bigger, my question is- out of all of the ones that survive from a whole host of treatments that I had to give them, some are still not better and I am just hoping they will now pick up- how many can I put into my 125 gallon? They are surviving from ICH, cotton mouth, wasting disease (roundworm and tapeworm infections), ammonia poisoning and nitrite poisoning (the last two are a long story and poor guys have nitrite right now too).

How much are they going to be stunted by all of these diseases and by ammonia, nitrite, and my nitrate, hard water that is naturally in my water?

Therefore, I know they are going to be stunted because their growth to me seems slower. I have had them a few months and the biggest has grown a little. About 6-10 of them swim despite my bright plant lights in the open, while the rest hide. Any recommendations?

Loachloach
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Re: I need a lot of questions answered about my current stoc

Post by Loachloach » Fri May 13, 2016 5:52 pm

Hey, don't get discouraged :)

Dealing with fish diseases is the most de-motivating thing in fish keeping.

First point: make sure you have enough filtration and no ammonia/nitrite!! You can't treat sick fish in a tank with unstable conditions because that's the number one cause of fish being sick. How is your filtration? Add more filter/filters!!! It will help in the long term. And do large water changes!!

Whether the fish are going to be stunted or not shouldn't be a concern right now. They'll hardly grow while they are sick. They should pick up once all is sorted. Those that won't, you can't do more than you've already done but that doesn't mean they won't live normally afterwards depending on their immune system. Don't give up on them, especially that clown loaches grow so slow, you could be too worried to think positively.

In terms of medication, you said you've treated for worms and tapeworms. Skinny disease is known to be caused by parasites such as spironucleus vortens, The ones that are still skinny may have parasites and not worms or tapeworms. It could be a combination of things too but search for how to treat hexamita.

Cotton mouth is bacterial. The tank could have gotten that with a sick fish. If not, look into the water conditions because bacterial diseases are a sign of something gone really bad inside a tank, normally overstocking/overfeeding combined with inadequate filtration and water changes.

Good luck and don't give up. Don't let the negatives get you down. It happens to all of us. It's a tough hobby sometimes.

uncclewis
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Re: I need a lot of questions answered about my current stoc

Post by uncclewis » Fri May 13, 2016 6:58 pm

I have strong filtration. Fluval Fx6, cascade 1500 and a hydo 600 and a magnum water polisher- and aerators. After adding a few more fish, an antibacterial, and I also changed most of the biological media to a different type (rings to matrix)... Those together caused another cycle.

No fish have gotten anything that they didn't have before from after being in my tank, but their conditions before must have been quite terrible. I ordered many online so they came as is and in terrible condition. I wasn't going to try to send them back to their death. I probably killed 2-3 though with my high ammonia when they first cycled, despite every possible precaution and water change that I could do...

This ammonia and nitrite is a newer issue, which happened in toward the end of the treatment. But I still have the cotton mouth issue. Can I turn on my UV for this issue? Or will I have to treat it? I will look into heximata because most of mine have gotten better but 2 still have the cotton mouth issue and a few are still wasting (however worm medication worked for most of this).

Diana
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Re: I need a lot of questions answered about my current stoc

Post by Diana » Fri May 13, 2016 10:09 pm

I would get more aggressive about the ammonia and nitrite.
Since your tap water starts off with ammonia, make sure you are using a high quality dechlorinator that also locks up ammonia. Prime is one that will help with ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.
Add a bottled bacteria that contains Nitrospira species of bacteria. Read the label and do not waste money on anything else. Dr. Tim's One and Only or Tetra Safe Start are good.
Turn off the UV and do not add any medications for a few days. Give the Nitrospira a good chance to get attached to the filter media.

I would also add live plants to this system. In the tank, or in a sump. Thriving plants will remove a lot of nitrogen.

When the tests show nitrite is present add salt (sodium chloride) or other source of chloride. Salt added at the rate of 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons of water will greatly reduce the amount of nitrite that is crossing the gills, entering the blood. Read up about methemoglobinemia.

With the mineral problems, weird GH, KH and pH, you might simply want to switch over to pure RO and remineralize with GH booster and potassium bicarbonate. This would get away from the ammonia-in-the-tap-water problem, too.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

uncclewis
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Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 8:56 pm

Re: I need a lot of questions answered about my current stoc

Post by uncclewis » Sat May 14, 2016 9:35 am

OK. I changed the water about 90% and I added some gallons of distilled water. My nitrite is 0* and my ammonia is 0. My TDS is 195, ph is 6.9. Before my nitrite highest spike after 1 day is .5PPM

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redshark1
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Re: I need a lot of questions answered about my current stoc

Post by redshark1 » Sat May 14, 2016 12:59 pm

Hi and welcome to Loaches Online :) .

As far as I know ammonia in tapwater really means chloramine which is usually eliminated by the correct dechlorinator.

Also, pH of 9.2 is very unlikely as anything outside 6.5 - 8.5 is considered unfit for human consumption, at least in my area.

Whenever I have trouble I simplify things and look for stability.

I would accept the water from your tap, using the correct dechlorinator (for chloramine) for water changes.

It sounds to me that you may need to get your cycle to catch up with your large input of fish, preferably without medications and additives which I am not a fan of.

If you don't have an effective cycle you won't keep fish healthy.

20 Clown Loaches is a big bioload in 75 gallons.

I wish you all the best :wink:
6 x Clown Loaches all 30 years of age on 01.01.2024, largest 11.5", 2 large females, 4 smaller males, aquarium 6' x 18" x 18" 400 ltr/90 uk gal/110 US gal. approx.

Diana
Posts: 4675
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:35 am
Location: Near San Franciso

Re: I need a lot of questions answered about my current stoc

Post by Diana » Sat May 14, 2016 2:41 pm

What is the GH and KH of the tank today? Monitor the conditions, see what happens to all the things you have tests for. Especially ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, GH, KH, pH and TDS.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

uncclewis
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 8:56 pm

Re: I need a lot of questions answered about my current stoc

Post by uncclewis » Sat May 14, 2016 2:50 pm

Thanks! At least right now I do daily water changes of 50% of greater. I have checked the ph in multiple ways often and usually it is 8.7ish-9.2. Apparently, my place may not be within specifications for that.. So I just contacted my water department, THANKS! Interestingly, right now it is however at 8.5 exactly and we had people doing mandatory yearly inspections and it may have been helped by this?

When I didn't have nitrite/ammonia I could do water changes every couple of days. Luckily for me my loaches are juveniles, so it is easier to maintain water conditions. They were just feed blood worms again.

Further, I am going to go for more live food to help prevent "leftovers." I think I am going to turn one of my larger tanks into a cherry shrimp breeding tank and feed them this mainly. They have immense amounts of filtration to accommodate their needs. You can tell because if I put seachem clarity in there, it clears quite fast... But, I rarely use that now. I think honestly that the amount of water flow is going to be what will help them to live in this tank even when fairly large (4 inches or so) because they will be using a lot of their body to swim into the heavy current, but when they get bigger I am going to increase the flow more (until I get the bigger tank).
Last edited by uncclewis on Sat May 14, 2016 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

uncclewis
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Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 8:56 pm

Re: I need a lot of questions answered about my current stoc

Post by uncclewis » Sat May 14, 2016 3:19 pm

Diana wrote:What is the GH and KH of the tank today? Monitor the conditions, see what happens to all the things you have tests for. Especially ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, GH, KH, pH and TDS.
I did a 90% water change yesterday or so... It was very large, was trying to get the TDS down to about the tap. I manipulated ph by using a buffer (fritz ph neutralizer). Otherwise my kh is barely measurable.

All of these are in PPM: Ammonia= 0, nitrite=.25=.5 color is in between, nitrate=10-15, GH= 75 TDS= 267, KH= 40 ph= 7.0

Also I have a question. Is it better to use a phosphate based buffer to fix my ph at 7 or to use a carbonate based buffer which fixes my ph at a range between 6.8-8? yes, consider those are my options! I have to change my kh, keep in mind.... So when I use the carbonate based it is dependent upon my tank previous, the interaction, and some user error associated with how much I am using because it is carbonate based and by definition there is more variation.....

Loachloach
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Re: I need a lot of questions answered about my current stoc

Post by Loachloach » Sat May 14, 2016 5:42 pm

I would not use any buffer. They are just temporary, will cause the stats to swing and then you'll have more sick fish.
I'd proceed with the large water changes. All the issues could have stemmed from water conditions. If you stocked the tank at once in the first place, it was probably going through a mini cycle and then the bad idea of changing the media was another blow. Try to get the tank to stable/cycled conditions. Do not let the tank have any readable nitrite at any time. Do not worry about the specific stats right now but make sure they are stable so when doing the water change you are not swinging the stats.

As Diana said, I would not put medication right now until your water is consistently clear of ammonia and nitrite because you can't treat fish in bad water. It just does not work. Medication relies upon the immune system of fish and fish in lingering ammonia and nitrite have extremely weakened immune system.
Having said that, to treat cotton mouth I'd suggest kanamycin sulphate/seachem kanaplex. It should not affect cycle but that's if put in a well established tank. It is suitable for clown loaches and any sensitive inverts or fish and it treats cotton mouth.

Diana
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Location: Near San Franciso

Re: I need a lot of questions answered about my current stoc

Post by Diana » Sat May 14, 2016 6:21 pm

My comment was about adding medicines if you use a bottled source of Nitrospira to get the cycle under control. When you first add one of these products the bacteria are in the water, and fish meds can kill them. Once these organisms get established on a surface they develop a biofilm that protects them from most meds.

I would use a carbonate buffer. Baking soda, potassium bicarbonate or similar. The nitrifying bacteria get their carbon from carbonates. They will not do well if the KH is under about 3 German degrees of hardness (about 55ppm)
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

uncclewis
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 8:56 pm

Re: I need a lot of questions answered about my current stoc

Post by uncclewis » Sat May 14, 2016 8:19 pm

OK. I won't treat with medications until then. I added my fish at about 2-3 different times. I didn't have any nitrites or ammonia before, but, yeah I did change my biological media at the wrong time I think, but, I was hoping that if there were anymore worms in them that it would then be removed... And I also changed most of the media that was dirty. Anyway, when can I turn my UV on? I need to start another round of deworming because it is time. The last time some round worms came out of the superficial parts of their body and it was disgusting- they need their last treatment. It is going to really make my tank cloudy and I am uncertain if I should do it right now. It is called flubendazole.

I just fed my fish some salmon and blood worms. I am trying to fatten the skinniest ones, they look starving- so they are on high protein diets. These ofc add to the ammonia/nitrites. As a group they eat about as much my cat in a sitting- but kitty isn't growing or as active. I usually feed once daily.

If I do not add kh, then my ph bounces all over the place because it is naturally a kh of less than 1 degree- which is great may be if you like soft water fish that could careless if the ph were 5 or 8 one minute or the next. I originally tried not changing it, but I had massive deaths- it was like 8.6 then 8, then 7 then 8.5 then 6.5, 6... all within 24 hours...which changed according to feedings and water changes or etc...

If I only add Kh my fish will have to acclimate to 8-8.5 ph is this acceptable for clown loaches or should I use my phosphate buffer? When I use my 7.0 buffer since I use the python, the highest spike I get is 7.6 when I do a 85% water change (I guess bc the kh is so low of the tap water...). But yes my true "carbonate" will be very low. My aquarium is heavily planted btw.

Ok so the latest update is I haven't had any nitrite or ammonia spike all day and I have not changed the water today (first day for this!). However, my nitrate is almost 40 ppm... How much nitrate can my clown loaches withstand before water changes? I only looked because every single one of my loaches was in hiding, so I got scared! Which is crazy because I turned the lights off? They now sleep/hide with the lights off? I am lost... I thought they were nocturnal and usually come out at night. Mine usually are... Scary!

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