Clown loaches in the wild

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Re: Clown loaches in the wild

Postby chefkeith » Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:09 am

I thinks it's just the opposite to your conclusion. The monsoon season's duration is the majority of the year. It's the dry season which forces the fish to migrate.
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Re: Clown loaches in the wild

Postby chefkeith » Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:33 am

"Most fish leave DSNP during the dry season and thus are available to fishers outside the park."
https://www.thefreelibrary.com/_/print/ ... d=93827524

In bibliography citation:
1995 The flooded forests & blackwater lakes of Danau Sentarum Wildlife Park, West Kalimantan, Indonesia.
Last edited by chefkeith on Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Clown loaches in the wild

Postby chefkeith » Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:41 am

Another old thread:

https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/foru ... ra.491976/

"Overall the Clown loaches from Kalimantan are brighter, and have more vibrant orange/red coloration in their fins, as the water in these districts is brown water, with numerous black water tributaries. The water is high in dissolved tannins and humic acids which accentuate the reddish/orange colours in the fish."
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Re: Clown loaches in the wild

Postby Loachloach » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:39 pm

I thinks it's just the opposite to your conclusion. The monsoon season's duration is the majority of the year. It's the dry season which forces the fish to migrate


"Most fish leave DSNP during the dry season and thus are available to fishers outside the park."
https://www.thefreelibrary.com/_/print/ ... d=93827524


I don't know about most fish because I've only researched clown loaches....I never claimed when they migrate.

The clown loach larvae cannot survive at high temeperatures(above 28C or so with optimum temperature 26C), hence clown loaches are assumed to spawn during the monsoon, when there's a temperature drop of the water. They are assumed to migrate too. I've no idea when the migration happens...perhaps during the dry season but they spawn during monsoon and its thought the period September to December. They are also said to have the lowest tropical temperature requirement of the fish living in the same area. Open any breeding paper on clown loaches. I posted a couple on one redshark's threads about clown loach maximum age. Unfortunately all the links disappear in days....not even weeks...I am not sure why are they moved so much so from now on I'll quote as well.

A quote I have saved from before on the temperature. From similar studies(perhaps its the same but links are broken) it was proven that 26C is critical for egg incubation and larvae survival....hence the thought of temperature drop required for clown loaches to spawn...which is not my conclusion but the conclusion of the ones that ran those studies..., simply because they'll be no surviving baby clown loaches otherwise, zilch...Temperature is a huge thing with clown loaches apparently...if you read recent data...not one from 10 years ago...

It has been shown in a previous study were clown loaches have been monitored over several years that a higher proportion of individuals were sexually mature at 26-27ºC than 30-31ºC (Legendre et al. 2012), something to consider in future studies. This fact is strengthened by the discovery of 26ºC as the optimum temperature for clown loach egg incubation (Baras et al. 2012b), maybe this would also be the optimum temperature for spawning since this could reveal that throughout the evolution of this species this has been the most consistent measurement value. Parameters throughout the evolutionary development should not be discarded without further research (Recknagel et al. 2014; Bowen et al. 2013). Pankhurst et al. (1996) showed that water temperature in rainbow trout seemed to be the most important factor in the time prior to ovulation. A factor the author would take more into count in future studies.
Last edited by Loachloach on Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:40 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Clown loaches in the wild

Postby Loachloach » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:49 pm

Another old thread:

https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/foru ... ra.491976/

"Overall the Clown loaches from Kalimantan are brighter, and have more vibrant orange/red coloration in their fins, as the water in these districts is brown water, with numerous black water tributaries. The water is high in dissolved tannins and humic acids which accentuate the reddish/orange colours in the fish."


I have read that article ages ago. RD has another longer one on the topic too but can't remember where it is. The picture of the Kalimantan clown loach is his own one, which he posted on another thread in regards to promoting NLS pellets for clown loaches, pointing out the dark orange colour they get. I too feed NLS and the dark orange coloration is due to good food, not tannins...See a picture below of one of my new baby clown loaches. I don't think RD keeps his fish in black water tank either...

Image

The yellow sumatran clown loach on the next picture from that link, with the thinner stripes, looks exactly like one of my 5 year clown loaches which I bought together with a group of 5 in total. He turned orange too in time...I've never seen a lighter clown loach unless they are sickly. In fact I have a baby clown loach I bought a couple of months ago, who is sickly and his colour is still yellow, not orange...Food plays a huge role in clown loach coloration...

I don't know where RD got his information. I can't agree completely or discard it unless there's a scientific article referencing it. But if you want to prove something, its better if you link a scientific article at least, not some old forum posts most of us have read already...

Having said that, Kalimantan clown loaches may come from black wate habitats. The ones from Sumatra don't....I've no idea what area my clown loaches come from...no reliable info to distinguish but they don't mind clear water....I think Redshark has his for over 23+ years in clear water...The consensus is clown loaches don't care...
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Re: Clown loaches in the wild

Postby Loachloach » Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:04 pm

Quoted from your link above: https://www.thefreelibrary.com/_/print/ ... d=93827524

The rise and fall of the river follows a seasonal pattern, with water starting to rise in either September or October and continuing to rise rapidly during November, and more slowly during December and January.


Ulang uli, engkadik, and ringau: Ornamental species important for the aquarium trade. Ringau is vulnerable because it has a relatively large size at breeding compared to its marketable size, and large individuals are rare. Populations of the other two seem tolerant to extreme fishing pressure on the young. Over two million ulang uli are exported from the Kapuas Hulu year after year. The adults of both species are increasingly rare, and collapse of these fisheries could occur.


Ulang uli are migratory, but the nature of the migration is unknown. Young fish first appear in December and January with a second peak in abundance occurring in April and May. Prasetyo and Ahmadi (1994) reported a similar catch pattern for ulang uli in the Batang Han River in Sumatra. There fish less than "2 inci" were caught downstream, implying that spawning may be in downstream areas. Ulang uli caught in DSNP are usually 2 to 6 cm and average somewhat less than 5 cm. Information on the growth, migration and breeding of ulang uli is essential for better management.



And a quote on the spawning period of clown loaches from this scientific article: https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/d ... TEXT01.pdf

One of the biggest issues with this study might have been at what time of the year it was carried out. Since all the specimens were wild caught and not breed for generations as many other ornamental species, the biological clock might still be an important factor. If C. macracanthus is a seasonal spawner, spawning in September – December it is plausible that it is important to breed them in this period under in vitro conditions to increase the chances of success.




So basically, taking your article into account and the paper on breeding clown loaches posted by me above(compare first and fourth quote above), the period during which the rivers water rise is the same as when clown loaches are assumed to spawn...September do December....Does water rise during the dry season? None of what I said is contradicted in the article you posted.

In fact, unrelated to that, it caught my attention that there are almost no large specimens caught in Kapuas hulu, logically that's why all the newly published breeding experiments were done with large specimens caught in Sumatra and not Borneo...

In fact, someone on another thread here, locally from the area said the same, majority of exported clown loaches now are from Sumatra....whether true or not...I can't be bothered to dig out the thread but its a very recent one..

Also,your article said the young clown loaches are found downstream where all papers point about adult loaches being upstream...Where baby clown loaches are caught and where adults spend their life time maybe two different areas...For example one can't claim that marine water fish that spawn in fresh water, should be kept in fresh water..or vice versa...
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Re: Clown loaches in the wild

Postby chefkeith » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:20 pm

The point taken was about the habitat being in "blackwater", not about coloration.
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Re: Clown loaches in the wild

Postby redshark1 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:21 pm

"I don't know where RD. got his information."

You could ask him via private message.

However, I believe he said he obtained information from someone exporting fish from the area.
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Re: Clown loaches in the wild

Postby chefkeith » Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:09 am

Staying on topic, one reason for the lack of clown loach videos in the wild is that clowns love to hide. Mine will hide almost all day long. Some only come out at night when the lights are off. They probably have even better hiding places out in the wild.
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Re: Clown loaches in the wild

Postby Loachloach » Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:33 am

The point taken was about the habitat being in "blackwater", not about coloration.


Yes I did, because the colour of the clown loaches was pointed to have been as a result of tannins, which it can't be because in another forum post by the same author the colour was contributed to this clown loach being fed new life spectrum.... Let's not argue for the sake of arguing. I would be interested to read papers(not forum posts or internet ramble) about their "black water habitat" which in fact can't be that black because clown loaches are said to have vegetation in their natural habitat...

Take for example their natural food - snails and give me a species of snail that lives in a black water habitat?...Their shells will erode...not to mention they are found in waters with vegetation, meaning clearer water...water with high enough Ph to keep snails alive...

I saw a video once about rasboras, kuhli loaches, horse face loaches...and an underwater footage of their habitat. The video mentioned that clown loaches are another species caught in the area...it was not a black water habitat...I'll try to find it again..

"I don't know where RD. got his information."

You could ask him via private message.

However, I believe he said he obtained information from someone exporting fish from the area.


Thanks redshark.
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Re: Clown loaches in the wild

Postby chefkeith » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:00 am

It's not Mars here we're talking about. Blackwater habitats are suitable for many fish. Seems that loaches will eat about anything. Mosquito larvae or bloodworms. Other insects/bugs, worms, mollusks, crustaceans, other fish, small frogs, tadpoles, lizards, or just scavenging the meat from dead crocs, turtles, or birds. As for vegetation, other than algae I don't know, but I'd bet it's seasonal. If they want some cucumber, then they are probably out of luck.

I got a link to a few research papers on the blackwater habitats of the Danau Sentarum also:
https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Borneo+R ... ry/1-p5257
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Re: Clown loaches in the wild

Postby chefkeith » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:38 am

Danau Sentarum during Monsoon season:
Image

During Dry season: (notice vegetation growing on dry lake bed).
Image

Sources:
http://update.ahloo.com/2016/12/06/dana ... rsembunyi/
http://pesona.indonesia.travel/destinas ... -sentarum/
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Re: Clown loaches in the wild

Postby Loachloach » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:58 pm

It's not Mars here we're talking about. Blackwater habitats are suitable for many fish. Seems that loaches will eat about anything. Mosquito larvae or bloodworms. Other insects/bugs, worms, mollusks, crustaceans, other fish, small frogs, tadpoles, lizards, or just scavenging the meat from dead crocs, turtles, or birds. As for vegetation, other than algae I don't know, but I'd bet it's seasonal. If they want some cucumber, then they are probably out of luck.


So according to you clown loaches accidentally happen to have adapted to crushing/sucking out snails of their shells...just like arowanas from the same area, or any other fish..if given the opportunity...I must tell that to my kuhli loaches and rasboras....Clown loaches also live 30 odd years in a lake that almost disappears during the dry season....Amazing they are still able to catch millions of them....

A quote from an article on Danau Sentarum....which I believe you already referenced earlier:
http://www.bollmoraakvarieklubb.org/art ... 0loach.htm

According to a fishery study of the Danau Sentarum Wildlife Reserve, fish under 8-10cm.s stay at the usual catching areas during the rainy season while the others migrate. Considering that the speed which they grow, we can come to the conclusion that Clown loaches spawn migrate from their second or possibly third year of age.


Which was my point all along...one must distinguish between habitats for young and adult clown loaches...

http://update.ahloo.com/2016/12/06/dana ... rsembunyi/
http://pesona.indonesia.travel/destinas ... -sentarum/


Problem solved then...chefkeith.The habitat of clown loaches is the same as arowanas....Tons of videos of them in their natural habitat....black water lakes/swamps

There is the first one I found....now I am going to convert my pond into a black water swamp..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jItbmHb1-xk
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Re: Clown loaches in the wild

Postby chefkeith » Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:33 pm

That was my point also. I said all along that they migrate.
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