Beside Myself With Yoyo Deaths

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Beside Myself With Yoyo Deaths

Postby FranM » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:19 pm

I have posted before about my skinny clown loach.

The skinny seems to be a chronic issue with it. I had several good months and then I notice the weight loss again ONLY with the one clown (I have another clown too--perfectly fine).

Because of the skinny I treated two doses of Prazipro as directed and bought Levamisole infused food flakes from Angels Plus, along with their recommendation of "Prevent and Recover" flakes after Levamisole treatment. All fish in tank have eaten the same regimen--silver dollars, clowns, yoyos and cherry barbs. While off the medicated food I'd feed frozen brine shrimp and lettuce.

The treatment has gone as prescribed over the course of a month. The clown barely shows improvement and I don't what to do about that, but the other fish seemed to be thriving. The clown is active to this moment and has been. No signs of any issue other than the skinny. When I say skinny I mean razorback, not belly skinny.

On Friday I saw all fish active. Yesterday, being I was gone for all day Saturday, I found two yoyos dead in the tank and the third one perished today. They were purchased over a year ago an added to my established tank. They GREW incredibly--bigger than the smaller clown in such a short period of time. I felt I was doing it all right. I try to keep nitrates under 20--I use Nitrazorb. In fact I checked nitrates last night and they were at 20. I do 50% water changes every week-week and a half. I'm so beside myself I want to throw in the towel. I want to be done with fish keeping. Seriously--anyone in RI or Massachusetts or CT want fish? I want to rip the tank down and be done.

I can't understand what happened and I'm sad and frustrated beyond belief! You don't think the overabundance of flakes during the treatment period had anything to do with it? There should be no reason that healthy fish cannot withstand medicated foods is there? IS IT POSSIBLE TO HAVE OVERFED WITH LEVAMISOLE FLAKES?

Thank you,
Fran
Last edited by FranM on Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Beside Myself With Yoyo Deaths

Postby FranM » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:49 pm

My fiancé, who felt so bad for me, just brought home two yoyos. Sighhhhh. I didn't want them or any fish but it was so sweet of him to do that--especially when he lives my tanks woes as well. He teases me and says he has a piranha on order-- one extra starved -- that will solve my fish problems. LOL.

As much as I'm not happy about getting more fish, never mind Yoyos at that, timing was good. I just got done with a water change and cleaning. I really hope someone can shed some light on what happened with the yoyos.

Does anyone recommend dosing the tank with PraziPro as precaution? I've heard other fishkeepers do this with new arrivals. I think I will but I'd like opinions.
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Re: Beside Myself With Yoyo Deaths

Postby fossphur » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:52 am

If you have any medicated food you might be better off worming them that way. Something I heard with new loaches was to keep an eye on them for ich too. I have six yoyos and I love them a lot, I've been very fortunate to have not had issues with them yet.
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Re: Beside Myself With Yoyo Deaths

Postby Diana » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:23 pm

Put the new fish in a quarantine tank and treat for internal parasites.

I do not know why healthy, growing Yoyos would die like this.

A fish that does not recover (the Clown Loach that stays skinny) may be infected by something that you have not treated for. Perhaps more than one problem. The treatment clears up one issue, and the fish feels somewhat better, but the other issue is still keeping the fish from full recovery.
If you want to keep working on this, you might put this fish in a hospital tank and keep treating with different medicines.
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Re: Beside Myself With Yoyo Deaths

Postby FranM » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:37 pm

Hi Diana.

I’ve been doing so much internet research hoping to find a similar scenario that has a reason for the cause of the deaths. It seems there are similar scenarios but no explanation of why the deaths occurred. What if months ago the fish endured possibly a week of nitrates in the 80’s. Would there be internal damage that took months to succumb to? And no other fish did? Sighhhhh.

I looked at PH the other day. Tank was very low—6.0. May have even been lower. Tap water is 8. I do 50% water changes. Could the fluctuation over time of changing ph levels cause the catastrophe? Just the yoyos though. Nothing else. I have old cherry barbs that you would think would be the sensitive ones. Are the yoyos that delicate?? It’s truly a mystery to me. I’m still bummed about it and I fear this will happen again.

The clown believe it or not actually is plumper. I’ve been feeding like mad. What other type of worm could cause the weight issue? I’ve fed metronidazole before when levamisole flakes weren’t available. I though the levamisole would be the cure all. I just done want anymore surprises or heartaches.

Thanks for replying, Diana. I really do keep up the tank. I feel like a failure. I must’ve neglected something to have had this disaster. IS IT POSSIBLE TO HAVE OVERFED WITH LEVAMISOLE FLAKES?
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Re: Beside Myself With Yoyo Deaths

Postby redshark1 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:35 pm

Would the treatment affect your cycle I wonder?
6 x Clown Loaches, 1f10.5", 1f9", 4m6", 1995, 6' x 18" x 18" 400l/110usgal.
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Re: Beside Myself With Yoyo Deaths

Postby FranM » Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:27 pm

redshark1 wrote:Would the treatment affect your cycle I wonder?


Hi redshark. Thank you. Completely certain that PraziPro does not interfere with the process.
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Re: Beside Myself With Yoyo Deaths

Postby Diana » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:31 am

Fish are not nearly so sensitive to pH changes as people used to think. From 6.0 to 8.0 though, is a bit extreme.
More often, it is the change in mineral levels in the water that cause stress to the fish. Fish are adapted to the levels of minerals, salts and other things that are measured as TDS (Total Dissolved Solids).

I would look into the mineral levels, especially the KH (Carbonate Hardness) in the tank, and the tap water. KH is the most common material in our aquariums that stabilize the pH.
Many water companies will add other minerals (not carbonate based) to keep the pH high in the pipes. Low pH is hard on the pipes. Often, if the water is naturally high in minerals they do not have to adjust the pH. But if the water is soft (if all the minerals are low) then the pH may be quite variable.
In your aquarium, the plants, fish and microorganisms are all removing the minerals they need, so the aquarium water can be different from the tap water, even if you are doing large water changes.
If you can test GH, KH, TDS and any other water tests you have, perhaps we can figure out a way to keep the water parameters more stable.

Nitrifying bacteria does not do very much when the pH is so low. pH about in the mid 6s is pretty much the low end for them. They survive, but do not remove the ammonia and nitrite so well. If your pH is regularly in the low 6s, then I would be quite worried about the bacteria not being active enough to keep the ammonia and nitrite levels under control.
To find out more about this you could do some research using the term 'Old Tank Syndrome'

I have often heard that high nitrates can have a long term effect on the fish. Also, ammonia and nitrite.
I have also seen some planted tanks where the owner needs to add nitrate fertilizer, and this can get quite high, but the fish are fine.
I suspect (but have no proof) that there are other wastes that may contribute to the stress when the nitrates are high from fish waste.
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Happy fish keeping!
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Re: Beside Myself With Yoyo Deaths

Postby FranM » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:23 pm

Thanks, Diana.

I don't have a planted tank, but I am going to start delving in GH and KH. Over the weekend I had added crushed coral to keep PH more stable and it has been averaging 7-7.2. I'm reading about KH and GH right now and maybe that really COULD be my big issue. I don't think I have old tank syndrome because I do vacuum gravel with weekly water changes. I rinse filter media in treated water twice a month. I just want healthy fish.
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Re: Beside Myself With Yoyo Deaths

Postby Diana » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:46 pm

If you can keep the GH about 3 to 10 German degrees of hardness, and the KH about 3 to 5 degrees this should suit the fish pretty well. This should keep the pH roughly neutral. As I noted above, the pH is not so critical. Try to keep the mineral levels as stable as possible.
KH under 3 degrees allows the pH to vary more easily.
Better to keep the pH stable by monitoring and adjusting the KH.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!
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Re: Beside Myself With Yoyo Deaths

Postby FranM » Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:00 am

Ok, Diana.

The kit will be here tomorrow. I will post tank and tap readings. I’ve had crushed coral in the filter over the past week. With any luck that will help raise KH and GH.

ALSO. I think I’ve gotten a little more insight into the possible problem and I’m going on a new course of action. Again let me first say that the original yoyos were active and I observed no sign of illness or anything wrong the last day I saw them. BUT since the loss, since the addition of the two small yoyos my fiancé bought me, I’ve been studying the fish especially since one of the new yoyos hides out until feeding. It’s very skinny and when I do see it it’s flashing some. ADDITIONALLY, of the two remaining cherry barbs I have left (going on six years easily) the male appears a bit wobbly and one eye looks a bit cloudy. I MAY have even seen a white spot on it. Originally I thought it was an age thing but maybe it’s a chronic ich problem!? Is it possible that ich may only affect gills? Hence the deaths with no visible symptoms. Long story short I’m going with Rid-Ich Plus. I performed a 50% water change and have had a carbon pack in for over 12 hours.

QUESTION: Has enough time gone by to start a new med regimen AND Can I feed medicated levamisole flakes during ich treatment?

Thank you.
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Re: Beside Myself With Yoyo Deaths

Postby Diana » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:12 am

Ich can live in the gills.
This is often the way it travels from the store to your aquarium when it looked like the fish in the store were OK.
This is why a quarantine tank is so important.

It is possible that healthy fish in a tank with large water changes may have just a few Ich, and the Ich does not successfully breed in such a setting. The large, frequent water changes that emphasize gravel vacuuming may be removing a lot of the breeding Ich before they release their babies, and the healthy fish may be able to resist most of the babies trying to burrow through their slime coat.

So... maybe it is possible that there is a low level of Ich in the tank, mostly in the fish's gills or in such small numbers that you do not see them.

In this case, though, with the most recent history of new fish added to the main tank, I think the new fish brought the Ich in with the water from the store.

No, do not combine medications unless both meds are labeled as safe to use with each other.
Treat for Ich first- it can become rampant very quickly. Then clear the water before you treat with Levamisole for internal parasites.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!
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Re: Beside Myself With Yoyo Deaths

Postby FranM » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:46 am

Thank you Diana for taking the time to help me out and advise. The levamisole is in flake food form not liquid so do you think it’s safe to feed while giving ich bath?

I’m tending to feel that the skinny clown, the wobbly cherry barb and the loach gross massacre, which was prior to the new yoyos, is due to a chronic ich issue. I’m going to treat as long as possible and perhaps eradicate for good! No new additions to the tank for a very long time. Since I don’t live alone I have lots of opposition to keeping a quarantine tank going nevermind the tank I have going now!

ALSO. RESULTS OF KH/GH test. API kit in PPM
GH—89.5 (five drops needed to make color change)
KH—35.8. ( two drops needed to see color change)

I’m thinking I should leave well enough alone. What do you think?

Again thank you, Diana.
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Re: Beside Myself With Yoyo Deaths

Postby Diana » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:46 pm

The reason for not mixing meds is that 2 meds might act in a similar manner, for example, being metabolized by the liver. Often, one of the deciding factors of dosage is 'How much can the fish handle before it is harmed by the meds?' In this example possible liver damage from an overdose.
If 2 meds are both handled by the liver, then dosing both at the same time is like an overdose.

I know that Ich meds are a bath/external treatment, but I do not know how much of the medication enters the fish's system. After all, anything in the water has the possibility of entering the fish via the gills and via the digestive tract when they swallow water with their food.

GH 5 drops = 5 German degrees of hardness. This is just fine.
KH 2 drops = 2 German degrees of hardness. This is just a little bit low.

Can you also test your tap water? Are you using straight tap water for the tank? Or are you doing anything to it besides dechlor? If so, test the tap water and also test the water after you do whatever you do to prepare it for the tank.

Test a few more times, for example, right before a water change, then the day after a water change (at least several hours later, give the new water and old a chance to blend).
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!
Diana
 
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Re: Beside Myself With Yoyo Deaths

Postby FranM » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:52 am

Thank you, Diana. Your explanation on the meds makes sense. Thank you for explaining with the example.

I will test tap today and I also have to do a water change before redosing with Rid Ich.

Correct, I only add Prime to water from tap which goes in a bucket as it’s pumped to the tank.

I will check tank prior to water change then test tank water again tonight and tomorrow before the next water change.

Really appreciate your help.

I want to treat with Rid-Ich as long as is needed to eradicate the ich cycle. But that is probably a minimum of three weeks? It really doesn’t say on the bottle the recommended length of treatment. I know some resistant strains could be as long as six weeks. Sighhhh.
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