Old topic, new Aquarist with Ich Questions...

[mikev]

FWIW I have to say that using salt with loaches is more often than not counter productive. .

This depends on the concentration.

With the concentration used by Xerxis it certainly was harmful. The concentration cited by the Peter fellow:

2 1/2 teaspoonfuls per gallon added over 3 days at 80?F

you will probably quickly hurt a healthy fish (and why 80F anyway???).

But lower concentrations are not harmful and seem to help as a supplement to other treatments.


Again, this is a gray debate area.

[Erik]

I think I may be able to solve this mystery.
Fish that are ich infested may not show signs because ich will infest gills as well since it is the easier way to have a "quick lunch"
As the fish weakens it spreads to water and the rest of the fish as it weaken by the gill infestion.
I have seen some fish nver get it visibly but still act stressed and die.
Since loaches have less scaled armour they are more suceptible.
Almost all loaches are wild caught so most them are carriers. As they are caught and transported they get weakened and by the time they get to an lfs they are on thier way to being infested.
I either bleach dip or rinse in extremely hot water any tank equipment tha must be shared between tanks during sickness. This has helped me immensely .
Regards
Erik

But here is an observation from Today from a local store.

They have a tank of clowns that arrived 14 days ago. Last Thursday, all were ich-free (I looked really carefully, had a very strong motivation ). Today, ich on a 3 or 4. All water there is cycled through a UV sterializer, which surely beats any meds we have. Where did the ich come from, especially on the 14th day? Does this mean that 14 days of treatment is not good enough?

[shari]

Mikev,

I was going to post that since ich is a parasite, not a disease per se, immunity would be unlikely. However, I thought I'd check it out first and found this:

http://www.vet.cornell.edu/Public/FishD ... ch/Ich.htm

It appears to be possible for fish to develop some immunity if they are treated successfully after once becoming infected. The immunity will not develop if left untreated, however.

thanks for the thought. I'm glad I looked into it a bit.

[mikev]

Shari,

Thanks for the link. That some immunity forms is imho certain. I'm not sure that

The immunity will not develop if left untreated

is true either. An untreated clown is likely be dead, but many other cyprinids seem to get mild cases which they can handle without meds. Such fish will probably develop *better* immunity than after treatment.

(Specific example from my tank: Redtail Rasboras. A possible Loach example: PolkaDot).

Ich is actually kind of interesting...at least once you don't see it as a death warrant.

[mikev]

I either bleach dip or rinse in extremely hot water any tank equipment tha must be shared between tanks during sickness. This has helped me immensely .

This is too advanced for me. I simply keep 3 sets of sharable objects (there are not too many of them, and different tanks need different syphons anyway). Hands is probably the most dangerous vector.


I see no problems with your logic (nice post!) and it has a corollary: the conditions in the lfs act as a trigger for the latent parasite.

This specific store is a good one as they go: they even treat their loaches for internal parasites. But having 30 3" clowns in a 20G tank may be stressful enough already.

offtopic aside: there seems to be something about the stores that triggers problems for any fish that stays there long enough. I got four tiny yoyo's from this place 3 weeks ago...and picked up two more today from the same batch -- the largest they had. Looks like theirs did not grow at all, while three of mine added at least 30% and perhaps doubled the weight. And their yoyos even were not too overcrowded (about 30 in a similar 20g).

---

The other corollary is that clowns bring their infection with them all the way from the wild...somehow I'm not very surprised.

---

I have seen some fish nver get it visibly but still act stressed and die.

Very interesting if true (I'm not doubting your words and I saw the same thing myself, but I thought that it was not from ich but from some other unknown cause).

Asymptomatic Ich? --- as the cause of the other Xerxis' fish dying???


Darn, you destroyed my evening, thank you very much. Now I have to think if the two new loaches here are stressed because of the new tank or because of an active asymptomatic ich infection....
I guess it makes no difference for treatment...

[Erik]

This will be a short post.
There have been 3 versions of maracide from mardel.

1)The first which was very concentrated.I have 100% success rate with this one. 1 drop per gallon was economical too. I always treated for a at least 10 days.

2)The 2nd version was after virbac bought mardel. This one was very dilute and changed from the orinal recipe in ingredients. Apparently not many people had good success with it.

3)The third chnged again and has "biospehere technology" this one apparently works well but still needs to have treament time extended to at least 10 days.

[Xirxes]

Ok, i am starting to get frustrated! My loach is fighting for his life and I CANT CURE HIM!!!!

hes had Ich signs since the 7th or 8th, and he is a tough little guy, although he is gettin progressively worse!

I did some research and switched to Rid Ich, it even mentions being safe for loaches on the back.

Ive also been very gradually treating my tank with Sea Chem Neutral regulator and Discus regulator, to get the pH to EXACTLY a steady 7.2.

Also i installed that bubble bar to keep the water (now at 86-87F) aerated.

I do approx 20-25% water change every 24 hrs and retreat the water with equivalent 1/2 ich and full dechlor.

is there ANYTHING else i can be doing?

if i lose this guy im really going to be pissed.

[Mark in Vancouver]

Change the next water and only treat it with dechlor. Stabilize your tank. A gravely ill loach that has been treated with multiple alternatives would probably want clean water to recover. Slow your changes to 30%, once a week.

Maybe the loach will survive. Barraging it with new water chemistry won't help, IMO. Stabilize the tank first. The bacteria need time to recover.

Small, clean water changes for a while. Getting "really pissed" or whatever is an unproductive approach. Solving the problem is the way to go. Then move from there.

[Xirxes]

***Update***

He is regaining color!! the white spots are fading and hes becoming more active.... I think that this Rid Ich stuff was the trick... his dorsal fin still almost never extends, but i think hes doing better by the day.

one strange thing he is doing tho is sort of "planting" his tail fin in the rocks and leaning into the corner upright...supporting himself on his tail... anyone ever seen this? The area is fairly dark and i suppose he feels safe there... anyone noticed this behavior before???

*note he only does this when the tank lights are on, when off he swims about, and spends a lot of time "flashing" against the tank magnet brush.

[mikev]

I think I may be able to solve this mystery.

Erik,

while what you said was was certainly possible, I found the Real Reason today.

The entire UV sterilization system in the store quite obviously failed. Worse yet, they did not realize it, the owner and his 2nd are not in, and the salesman will not add meds himself. Lots of Ich and dead fish everywhere...

Anyway, if by a stroke of luck someone who is around NY happens to read this post, and is interested in saving some (formerly nice) Schisturas, Gastros, Clowns or Odessas (it is probably not too late YET, it will be in two days), drop me a PM, and I'll say where.

[monitrend]

Hi there,
I have 30 gal mature tank, well planted, well aired. In it is 1 chinese butterfly, 1 weather loach and 2 female bettas (was 3, but one got trapped in the whole of a flower pot and died
I bought 5 clowns and already exchenged 3 dead for new once. Now I have 3 more in the bag (Frozen - I'm just on my way to the store with them). All my water readings are perfect after the peek of ammonia (!). The store clerk told me last time that my water was too soft. Now it is harder. I got the ich OF COURSE. The immuune system of the loaches was compromized and I expected to see some ich, However, I don't think they died of it. All the loaches in the lps are healthy. Obviously my tank was infested. I treated them with no coper med. They were getting better.
My thing though is - I've never seen them eat!!!! I think that they just died of hunger!!! Even though I was feeding them. So i guess my question is - what to feed them.
I've been waiting for them too long (almost 6 months - no store had them, honest!!!) and the tank was prepared just for them. Oh, yeah, and they all are very small - an inch each.
So - what do you feed them? liquid food?
thanx in advance for your help
Monica

[mikev]

So - what do you feed them? liquid food?

Try bloodworms. And drop a few catfish pellets, maybe they will eat overnight.

Clowns need some time to adjust. For example, with the new ones I got last Sat, "active" feeding took place only today.

How long did you have yours?

..............

I never heard about water being "too soft" for loaches....don't think this is possible.

..............

HTH.

[monitrend]

hi Mike,
thanks for the answer. I thought the loaches like their water very soft, but that's what the man at the lps told me - too soft.
Anyway, I have now 3 more and I am not going to put them into that same tank - I'm too affraid of having them infected with ich, which I abviously have in the tank. I'm going to check the water I brought them in, and match it in a separate bare bottom tank and see how they are. I checked again the tank in the lps - there is 1 dead loach I saw, but they have LOTS of them, so it's hard to say if they are all the same all the time day after day when I see them. They look nice and healthy, swimming all together in a school. The clerk also told me that they feed them shrimp pellets, but that's what I've been giving and - so far there was no takers
thanks again,
Monica

[monitrend]

How long did you have yours?

ps.
I bought them 3 weeks ago and so far only one of them lives

[mikev]

Hi Monika,

You are very welcome,

Mine eat shrimp pellets....but it is certainly their less favorite food. "Assorted Catfish Wafers" seem better.

Anyway, I have now 3 more and I am not going to put them into that same tank - I'm too affraid of having them infected with ich, which I abviously have in the tank.

It is probably the other way around: your ich in the tank has been suppressed (and perhaps eliminated), but your new fish comes with fresh ich and you really don't want to re-infect your main tank.

You previously said:

(Frozen - I'm just on my way to the store with them).

This nearly guarantees a serious ich case in 2-4 days. If you don't want to lose them, you must starting treating the new loaches for ich TODAY. Treating before you see symptomes is much safer.


As for your water softness -- this is probably not an immediate concern. Do not modify the water, only try to keep the pH in the 6.5-7.0 range.