Old topic, new Aquarist with Ich Questions...

[Xirxes]

Hello,
I have had real trouble keeping clown loaches in my tank. SO far in the last 3 weeks i have seen 3 go to ich as well as other unknown causes(bright colors, no ich, yet died overnight).
I have only one 30 G tank, so no medical tank available. At this point i have one 3inch clown that has faded black stripes and heavily covered with what i believe is ich, and i have a 2.75 inch clown that is bright without any apparent infection. I will include pictures here.
**large pictures, bout 3megs each, need to scroll**
Heres a link to the healthy one:
http://members.cox.net/santeestyle/IMG_1544.JPG
And now for the Infected one:
http://members.cox.net/santeestyle/IMG_1551.JPG


My setup is 30G tank, with 1tblspoon salt per 10 gallons, pH at roughly 7.5, filtering through activated carbon and peat to keep the pH down(hard san diego water). Treating tank every 5 days with Aquari-sol Ich treatment at half dosage. Temperature is at 82F. Water changes once a week at about 25%. I currently have a large rock in the middle of the tank with hiding spaces underneath.

My water has been thoroughly tested and has been fully cycled fr some time, no nitrates/ites or ammonia present, when i brought all three dead loches back to my LFS they said it was perfect.

I have a few questions:

1) Is this ich?
2) Does Aquari-sol work?
3) Why do these loaches seem to get Ich so quickly?
4) Can my seemingly healthy clown get Ich from the other clown?
5) Is there anything else you can think of that i might be able to do to assist these poor loaches?


*new development* Just noticed that the infected clown has large "flake like" whitish transparent whisps falling off of him.

[mikev]

Hello,

I have a few questions:

1) Is this ich?

Looks like it and it is pretty bad.

2) Does Aquari-sol work?

Generally, yes, but better in combo with another med (see similar thread).

And you really should not have salt, especially so much, unless you are fighting ich.

3) Why do these loaches seem to get Ich so quickly?

Because they are clowns.

More seriously, because you probably were not very careful when you got them:
1. Did you check them at the store?
2. Did you allowed the water to cool down when you transported them home?
3. Did you acclimate them? -- given that you seem to have a non-ich problem too, this may be it.

How did you acclimate exactly?

4) Can my seemingly healthy clown get Ich from the other clown?

Generally yes, unless it is immune already, in which case you may get a mild case.

5) Is there anything else you can think of that i might be able to do to assist these poor loaches?

See the other thread for one formula (Salt+Ich Guard).

This looks pretty bad already, because salt may be doing more damage then help right now.

I'd probably go for 50% water change to decrease the amount of salt (!), and raise temp to 85F.

*new development* Just noticed that the infected clown has large "flake like" whitish transparent whisps falling off of him.

Possibly your salt is disintegrating his slime coat.

HTH

[Xirxes]

I checked for bright colors at the store, and had him feed them so i could see the ones i want eat and be sure they had an appetite.

I allowed the water in their transfer bag to acclimate for 20 minutes, then added 1 cup tank water, then 15 minutes later added 1 ore cup tank water, then added them to tank... i believe this is propper acclimation

I was JUST told today by a trusted fish store owner to INCREASE the amount of salt! so many oppinons around this place. ok well what is the consensus? water change time?

[mikev]

I checked for bright colors at the store, and had him feed them so i could see the ones i want eat and be sure they had an appetite.

Next time I suggest you check for small dots on fins and the tail, and check ALL fish, not just the one you're getting.

(In reality, Ich is NOT a serious problem, I bought fish from heavily ich-infected tank at the store.)

I allowed the water in their transfer bag to acclimate for 20 minutes, then added 1 cup tank water, then 15 minutes later added 1 ore cup tank water, then added them to tank... i believe this is propper acclimation

If the amount of water in the bag was 1-2 cups, yes (I'd personally go a bit slower). If it was 5-6 cups, probably no, you sent the fish into a shock and hurt its immune system to start with.

Your 7.5ph is sufficiently different from 7.0 most lfs' would maintain. If your store actually kept clowns in slightly acidic water, as some *better ones* do, you might be moving them from 6.5->7.5, and that's a lot.

I was JUST told today by a trusted fish store owner to INCREASE the amount of salt! so many oppinons around this place. ok well what is the consensus? water change time?

You already have 1/2 of the recommended dosage (1 tbl spoon for 5g, see for example,
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/P ... 004+113869). This is really as high as you can with scaleless fish and *only for short emergencies*, not permanently. Judging by your last comment whitish transparent whisps falling off of him, your loach' slime coat is heavily damaged (by first ich and then salt), you'll make things yet worse by adding more salt.

IMHO, the only strategy that has some chance is to decrease the amount of the parasite in the water (water change), decrease the amount of irritation (water change), speed up the ich cycle (temp), and hope that your loach will last long enough for the ich *on it* to cycle out.

Yes, you can try a salt bath too *not in the tank*, but I think it will do more harm than good now.

Hopefully someone else has a brilliant idea,...my sense is that when the skin starts disintergating, chances are pretty slim and the meds may become more dangerous than ich.

HTH

[Xirxes]

It was about 3 cups of tank water, and the guy there says that they keep all of their tanks at tap water, softened, but at 7.5 or so.

yeah, seems to be his slime coat coming off, but the area under the coat does not seem to have any white marks.

I dont want to debate nuances, just would like advice...

So far i have:

-Pick healthy fish from reputable vendor
-spend more time acclimating
-less salt is better
-half dose medicine if used
-regular water changes

I picked fish that had no ich, and neither did ay of their tank mates, acclimation may have been an issue, causing the stress, but the ich did not show up for 2 days or so.

I have changed out approx 40% of water, and replaced with treated (lightly salted) water, and added half the aquari-sol dosage back intothis water.

So now its a waiting game? see if nurture wins out against nature?

Last question is how often should i change this water? daily?
-remember that my tap comes out at 7.8-8.0 pH and hard as hell.

Thank you for your help

[mikev]

yeah, seems to be his slime coat coming off, but the area under the coat does not seem to have any white marks.

Unf., it may be a big burn, which is more dangerous than ich.

I dont want to debate nuances, just would like advice...

So far i have:

-Pick healthy fish from reputable vendor
-spend more time acclimating

....more time and more iterations too.

-less salt is better

no salt or very little salt (<10%), unless you are treating ich. Do not add any more salt now, even on water change, you got enough to kill the *free-floating* parasites.

-half dose medicine if used

Only for Ich Guard. Other meds have different rules, some actually kill loaches (forgot which one, sorry).

-regular water changes

Temp->85F or even a bit higher. 82F is not enough. Hopefully you don't have fish that cannot tolerate high temp.

I picked fish that had no ich, and neither did ay of their tank mates, acclimation may have been an issue, causing the stress, but the ich did not show up for 2 days or so.

This is about how long it takes usually, could have been longer, like a week too.

I have changed out approx 40% of water, and replaced with treated (lightly salted) water, and added half the aquari-sol dosage back intothis water.

Imho, no more salt, and google for "aquari-sol loaches" to see if anything useful comes up. I have not used aquari-sol.

So now its a waiting game? see if nurture wins out against nature?

Last question is how often should i change this water? daily?

Hard to say. Probably daily 10%-15% for a few days. See what happens tomorrow, and perhaps someone from a hard water area (UK) adds something.

-remember that my tap comes out at 7.8-8.0 pH and hard as hell.

Ph 7.5 is the upper limit for clowns, asaik.
---> Throw away your stone and put in a large untreated bogwood.
---> You may have to invest into bottled water (distilled or RO, not spring) too.

Thank you for your help

Very welcome, hopefully this would help.

[Xirxes]

well... he died today... that makes 4 out of 5 clown loaches i have recieved have died of Ich in the last 4 weeks!!!

I am totally stumped, am i cursed? should i give up on loaches?
THe one that died is within his warranty, and i have one left, i do not want the one remaining to be lonely, but last time this happened, by the time i got a replacement loach, the older one HAD ICH AGAIN ARGH!

at my wits end with this crap. Think i will try with last replacement here, then ixnay on the oacheslay.

[mikev]

You are not cursed, you simply don't have much experience with ich YET. Your loach was a goner, the picture made this much obvious. Your second loach was nearly certain to get ich since your tank is infected, but he may make it if you do the things right.

IMHO, you will be better off if you prepare a bit before getting more clowns (perhaps your store can delay giving you the replacement for a week or two).

Prepare:
1. Bring the salt concentration down to 1/4 of the recommended dose.
2. Get Ich Guard (use 1/2 of the recommended dose) and treat your tank for at least 3 days with the carbon filter out before adding any clowns.
(alternatively -- use some other med someone else here can recommend. I'm sticking to Ich Guard because it always works for me and fast, but it does not mean it is the only or even the best way.)
3. Add large untreated bogwood to the tank, it should bring the Ph down quickly.
4. Temp at 85F-86F. Add another airstone --just for now-- if you are not sure you have enough.

2. and 3. will make your water look quite bad, it does not matter.

I would not get another clown until you cured the one you have and see no ich signs for a week. When/if your clown seems cured, continue the treatment anyway!

When getting the replacement, make totally sure that the temp does not drop during the transportation. Bring a blanket to wrap the fish bag in, if you must.

Acclimate really slowly (2 hour procedure, water change in the bag every 10-15 minutes, figure out how to do it so that water changes are uniform).

HTH


PS> Do you have other fish in the tank? Tetras, Barbs, many others ... may get ich too.

[Xirxes]

I have three leapord danios in the tank as well, and they have all been fine throughout the whole process...

It is now a day after i removed the dead clown, and the newest addition seems to have gotten by unscathed! the water is at 85 or so, and i will add one more half treatment of aquari-sol to be sure i get all of the ich that are left. I have heard good things about the Aquarisol.

I am not familair with an airstone, are they expensive?

Also where should i look for this bogwood?

Thank you again for all of your help!

[mikev]

I have three leapord danios in the tank as well, and they have all been fine throughout the whole process...

Some species are naturally immune (Khulis are, IME). Often the fish that is raised in tanks has met ich before and acquired good immunity. But you still need to watch them.

It is now a day after i removed the dead clown, and the newest addition seems to have gotten by unscathed! the water is at 85 or so, and i will add one more half treatment of aquari-sol to be sure i get all of the ich that are left. I have heard good things about the Aquarisol.

I don't want to be critical of something I never used, but it seems it did not do you much good so far.
Also, I never said "half treatment of Aquarisol", if it says "for all fish, including scaleless", it may be that *full treatment* is right.

BTW, you cannot get rid of all the ich no matter what you do. The idea is to suppress it enough.

I am not familair with an airstone, are they expensive?

Simply another air bubble source, probably $10-$15.

Also where should i look for this bogwood?

Start with the fish stores in your area, someone will have it. They probably will call it "driftwood" (incorrectly), if so, make sure it did not come from the sea. Don't weaken it, only rinse well.

Thank you again for all of your help!

Very welcome again, good luck.

[Erik]

Actually you can get rid off all ich that is a myth. With proper treatment it can be erradicated.

1) temp tank to 86' degrees
2) lots of air stones as warm water will have less O2
3) treat using maracide full strength for double the treatment period.
4) gravel vac and water changes between doses.
Using this method I have not lost a single laoch to ich.
I do this to all new botia loaches while in my 15 gallon Quaratine tank.
Also melafix will help with healing the damage that ich causes and help avoid subsequent bacterial infections.
Forget salt btw the amount needed to harm ich will severely distress any loach.
Here is a very good compilation of ich information.
Peters Ich Notes
http://www.caloriesperhour.com/fish/notes_ich.html

[mikev]

Actually you can get rid off all ich that is a myth. With proper treatment it can be erradicated.

It is an interesting theoretical issue which is fortunately irrelevant to the Xirxes problem.

IMO, the incidents of sudden ich reappearance after tank gets cold prove the existence of some dormant parasite, but I would not argue this further, only point out that the Lateral Line FAQ on TFF
http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=15537
clearly states otherwise.

[Erik]

Well lateral Line is not the definitive answer on this. The Univercity of Florida has done a large intensive study and found No answer either. My maintaining a high temp in tank accelerates the life cycle. Via water changes and gravel vac removes ich in various life cycle stages. Eventually after extended treament the orgainism will "burn out" as there are no more tomonts left to produce theronts.

The high heat also kills ich while in the theront and trophont stage(UofF quotes 90' but many fish cannot handle that I have 84-87 is enough)
The key to permently erradicating ich is extended time period of treatment. hence treating for at least 5-6 days after the last spot is seen on any fish.
IMe the theory of permenant ich infestion occurs through inaccurate treatment, cross contamination tanks through equipment lack of sterilization.

I have had various power outages=lack of heating and a river tank that varies between 60-80 ' depending on time of year aand nerver had an ich outbreak.

Here is a U of F document about ich.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_FA006

[mikev]

Well lateral Line is not the definitive answer on this.

Most certainly no, but he is one of the better people on the net, even if I had a violent disagreement with him about another theoretical issue.

I know that with the ich residue, there is no definitive answer.

I *believe* that some parasite residue remains in water because of some observations which are difficult to explain otherwise. The argument about extended treatment does not fully work since you are dealing with a very large number of particles; even if you kill 90% of them on each cycle, you need a large number of iterations to *probabilistically* approach a no-parasite state.

Obviously I'm in full support of prolonged treatment, even if my rationale is to reduce the amount of parasite by another order of magnitude, not a hope to totally kill it off.

I have had various power outages=lack of heating and a river tank that varies between 60-80 ' depending on time of year aand nerver had an ich outbreak.

Entirely possible, even likely, if your fish had some degree of immunity.

I got a 2nd ich infection on one of my clowns once. It amounted to one dot, and while I did a bit of treatment, this one dot was all that happened.



---

All right. I don't think we can resolve this and perhaps there never will be an answer.

But here is an observation from Today from a local store.

They have a tank of clowns that arrived 14 days ago. Last Thursday, all were ich-free (I looked really carefully, had a very strong motivation ). Today, ich on a 3 or 4. All water there is cycled through a UV sterializer, which surely beats any meds we have. Where did the ich come from, especially on the 14th day? Does this mean that 14 days of treatment is not good enough?

(I'm not asking for an answer, only wondering aloud).

And as luck has it, I probably will have to deal with ich by Wednesday, since I got two of these clowns. In fact, I started salt and temp already, and of course I'm not mixing them with my clowns.

Hopefully *the interesting one* will come out of the driftwood tomorrow so I can take a photo....without it, I cannot explain well why I had to get him.

(Poor fellow is very scared right now...He bit the salesman at the store, got a bit of rough handling...hopefully he'll make it, and hopefully my clowns will not reject him, like the ones at the store did.)

[shari]

FWIW I have to say that using salt with loaches is more often than not counter productive. They are not used to any salt in their natural habitat and using sufficient salt to damage ich (as Erik said) would create far greater stress in the loaches than the benefit it would offer.

As for the Ich in the water all the time issue...it's a debate

Loaches are not what I would call 'difficult' fish to keep. But are not the best fish for beginning aquarists, and certainly need a well established, mature tank. Successful loach keeping begins with very careful acclimation procedures, q-tanking and monitoring for diseases/parasites, and effective treatment (sometimes profilactically) if you know they are wild caught species.

Sorry to hear about all your ich problems, but clowns are notorious for succumbing to it.

Hope you can do better next time.