Poor appetite help

[hamfist]

Dear Loach forum, I approach you for advice and help, as I have tried everything with my shoal of 6 clowns. THey are all between 3 and 4 inches, and seem reasonably healthy. None look desperately skinny, but the big problem is that I just can't get them enthused about eating. They will eat some pellets, but not desperately enthusiastically at all. They are growing but agonisingly slowly. I feed moderately, 1-2 times a day. Certainly no more, because they simply won't eat it.
I have tried various pellets, flakes, crisps, veggies, (even frozen bloodworm leaves them unimpressed !). They don't seem to recognise cucumber or zucchini as food items. The only other food strategy I can think of is trying meaty stuff. I have ordered some mussels in their shells, so I will definitley be giving them a go imminently.

For context, the shoal live in a 150G with 5 x gourami, a shoal of large rasboras and a couple of peaceful cichlids, and a few odd small singeltons. Water changes are 50% weekly with an RO mix, softish, around 80-90 ppm. Ammonia and nitrites obviously nil, and nitrate hovers between 5 and 10.

The loaches are a tiny bit nervous, but not desperately so. If I sit down in front of the tank during the daytime, they will come out happily. If I move much they will shoot off for a bit, but will come back quickly. I have certainly had much more skittish loaches, but these are certainly a little skittish.
They have plenty of plastic plants, bogwood and plastic rocks in the tank. SUbstrate is a large grain black sand. Hiding places are the 2 plastic rocks which I have made entrance/exit holes in, and they use them happily.

Please, does anyone have any suggestions to get them more enthused about eating. My skill set has been exhausted.

[redshark1]

Hi hamfist I see we have spoken before a while ago!

Well what I will say is that you appear to be keeping them well to me.

What may give solace is that I can tell you they do change their behaviour over time, perhaps many times.

You can make many small changes which help.

I keep mine only with dithers (currently Harlequin Rasbora which are the best but I have tried many others).

They have been very outgoing and greedy for the last ten years, but I have kept them for nearly 29 years and it wasn't always this way.

Things that I think helped were increased oxygenation of the water and blacking out the back and sides of the tank so danger is perceived from only one direction.

I feed them only in daytime twice a day and you might think of using some of my foods too.

It hasn't always been like this but they shoot out of their hiding places and scatter the gravel when food is put in.

Clown Loach Feeding list / Food list
Every day I feed the following: Freeze-dried Pacific Krill (the small one, the large one is Atlantic Krill) soaked in boiled water until they sink then rinsed. Frozen Bloodworms thawed and rinsed (I get a 1kg A4 sized sheet, chop it up with a hammer and chisel and box it in the freezer). Finally I give them some Tetra Sinking Discus Granules which they love to dig for. Occasional foods: Cooked Frozen Mussels or Prawns (you must buy them cooked so that the thiaminase is destroyed) thawed, rinsed and chopped. Freeze-dried Earthworms soaked in hot water and rinsed. Other dried foods include New Life Spectrum Algae Max, Fluval Large Bug Bites, Omega One Shrimp Pellets and New Life Spectrum Large Fish Formula. When in season I feed daphnia and aquatic larvae from my garden's water butt. I spread the food out to enable all of them to forage for it otherwise the dominant fish take it all. I would suggest buying good quality branded food as I find it is fully eaten, digested and does not pollute the water. I had a bad experience with cheap food which looked identical but wasn't. I don’t feed veggies as I found they pollute the water and aren’t favoured by my fish.
I keep this list on file as people often ask and it also allows me to edit it.

[hamfist]

Hi hamfist I see we have spoken before a while ago!

Well what I will say is that you appear to be keeping them well to me.

What may give solace is that I can tell you they do change their behaviour over time, perhaps many times.

You can make many small changes which help.

I keep mine only with dithers (currently Harlequin Rasbora which are the best but I have tried many others).

They have been very outgoing and greedy for the last ten years, but I have kept them for nearly 29 years and it wasn't always this way.

Things that I think helped were increased oxygenation of the water and blacking out the back and sides of the tank so danger is perceived from only one direction.

I feed them only in daytime twice a day and you might think of using some of my foods too.

It hasn't always been like this but they shoot out of their hiding places and scatter the gravel when food is put in.

Clown Loach Feeding list / Food list
Every day I feed the following: Freeze-dried Pacific Krill (the small one, the large one is Atlantic Krill) soaked in boiled water until they sink then rinsed. Frozen Bloodworms thawed and rinsed (I get a 1kg A4 sized sheet, chop it up with a hammer and chisel and box it in the freezer). Finally I give them some Tetra Sinking Discus Granules which they love to dig for. Occasional foods: Cooked Frozen Mussels or Prawns (you must buy them cooked so that the thiaminase is destroyed) thawed, rinsed and chopped. Freeze-dried Earthworms soaked in hot water and rinsed. Other dried foods include New Life Spectrum Algae Max, Fluval Large Bug Bites, Omega One Shrimp Pellets and New Life Spectrum Large Fish Formula. When in season I feed daphnia and aquatic larvae from my garden's water butt. I spread the food out to enable all of them to forage for it otherwise the dominant fish take it all. I would suggest buying good quality branded food as I find it is fully eaten, digested and does not pollute the water. I had a bad experience with cheap food which looked identical but wasn't. I don’t feed veggies as I found they pollute the water and aren’t favoured by my fish.
I keep this list on file as people often ask and it also allows me to edit it.

THanks, RedSHark, Your loaches are fairly legendary, and you are clearly doing an awful lot the right way. Thanks for responding. I am a very experience fishkeeper (over 50 years now) but I have never had great success with Clowns, its one of the great frustrations of the hobby for me.

As for pellets, I only buy premium brand stuff because, as you say, the cheap stuff just doesn't have the same nutrition. I have had most of this group for 9-12 months, and they have definitely settled somewhat over time. I think I just need to persevere and be patient - and of course try out new foods. SOmetimes it is hard to know when to persevere with a new food, or sinply give up with it because no new foods are ever loved initially. Its a tough decision.

I have also ordered some more levamisole-based medication. I have already treated the whole tank twice with this (I didn't notice a direct change in appetite due to this) but some writers claim that many treatments may be needed to fully eradicate the gut parasites they often come with. I do have some suspicion that their lack of a great appetite may be due to parasites still. Anyway, I will give another couple of treatments with this - it doesn't seem to do any harm to the fish or the filter, so its a win win really. - DO you have any thoughts about gut parasites - appetite and treatments ?

[redshark1]

I have never treated my fish for parasites other than the Ich/Whitespot they had shortly after purchase. This was their only ailment.

My understanding is they are routinely treated by the wholesalers before export.

[hamfist]

I have never treated my fish for parasites other than the Ich/Whitespot they had shortly after purchase. This was their only ailment.

My understanding is they are routinely treated by the wholesalers before export.

Thats interesting. The "internet wisdom" that I have often read elsewhere is very much the opposite, and one does frequently see tanks of small, skinny clowns in LFS. I have no idea what the truth is.
I received some levamisole in the post yesterday so I will treat them again - its cheap enough and seems very benign to the fish and filter so it can't hurt.
I will continue with patience and other meaty/seafood items to try and tempt them into a greater appetite. Things are certainly not terrible as they are though.

[redshark1]

Its hard to comment on something I haven't personally experienced in my fish and therefore haven't researched fully.

I haven't seen a study that identified a parasite causing this condition.

I have seen a study that found no parasites in imported Clown Loaches.

But something is going on as the "skinny disease" phenomenon is common.

[NancyD]

hamfist, what country do you live in? I have treated new loaches of several species with levamisole in quarantine for new fish. It seemed to help with some groups of loaches. I have also used flubendazole (not fenbenazole that must be fed in food) with good results.

Have you tried any live foods? In the US I can get California blackworms in shops or by mail. I also have fed white worms (fairly easy to culture & small enough for most fish) & smaller red worms (meh, too much effort). & of course snails of most common kinds are like "loach candy". Snails can be carriers of some internal parasites or protozoans I believe but it is almost no effort to grow them in a small tank. Red ramshorns were favorites; pond snails second; trumpet snails not for smaller loaches but maybe for your clowns...

redshark, I would like a link to your "no parasites" in imported loaches article study. Not that I'm doubting you but I'd like more info. In wild caught fish there "used to be" a more than slight chance of parasite infection with wild caught fish (most loaches back in the day)...that's why some of us treat new fish always. I would love to think I no longer need this step to acquiring new loaches or other fish...but for now & the foreseeable future I'll still be quarantining new fish & treating them early on.

The only time I've skipped QT is when I got fish from a fellow hobbyist who had kept/bred them for quite a long while...& just that 1 time or maybe it was twice from the same person.

[redshark1]

NancyD as it is you who are claiming something exists I believe the burden on proof falls on you or are you making an argument from ignorance?

[NancyD]

redshark I wasn't trying to pick a fight, far from it. I would love to read an actual study rather than our hobbyist's usual of "in my experience" or " I've read" about a given idea. I can only claim those as reasons for most of the ways I treat my fish I have over many years. Many of those come from Loaches.com over the years . I'm a firm believer in science. But some studies are better than others in the way the data are collected & interpreted. I had not read of the study you mentioned but it can be hard to search for such things. I hoped you would share a link or at least a few hints on how to find it. I'm sorry you took my interest as a challenge, I did not mean it that way.

As science allows for new knowledge, I've had to change my ideas on several fish related subjects over the years. Some are just a conflict of "best" husbandry practices. As we learn more, I hope we all become better fish keepers. Over 45 years of fish keeping, many "facts" are no longer valid...you know, you've been in the hobby a long time too, LOL. It was not personal attack in any way, I'm not sure why you took it that way..."a study" in an indefinate form is not a citation of an actual scientific paper. I just want to learn more.

As I treat new fish in quarantine I rarely see disease issues (or I would not have acquired them). Sometimes I need to offer a variety of foods to see what new fish will eat if I either don't know or don't want to use the type or brand of food they were previously fed. (I'll just say I won't feed tubifex worms in any form or a brand or 2 of some foods. Read the labels!).

I would also ask you how many new fish you've gotten since Athina et al clownscame to live with you? How long have you had each batch of harley rasboras? I can't believe they are all almost 30 years old...Other tanks of other species? You've done a great job with your clowns! You should be proud & I think I've sent congrats to you every year for a long time...

[redshark1]

NancyD you have provided no evidence of the existence of parasites in imported Clown Loaches.

I have looked up the link of the study that showed no parasites in imported Clown Loaches.

https://sciforum.net/paper/view/9419

Thankyou, this is all I have time for today.

[NancyD]

I found that study too. I thought it would be harder to find, I'm not always the best searcher. It was interesting but only involved 15 clown loaches. If importers routinely treat fish wouldn't all the fish in the study be parasite free? I'd think they wouldn't want to pay for a possible infection treatment that would not kill fish quickly, if at all.

As far as I know (most?) any fish can be infected with various parasites or other things like bacteria. It's very hard to tell what might be wrong with fish & how best to treat them. Not eating well could be from lots of things not necessarily "skinny", internal parasites or bacteria infection.

I was merely suggesting trying a different treatment since levamisole didn't seem to help before & doesn't kill all parasites. Here's Shari's article from a while back https://www.loaches.com/Members/shari2/ ... chloride-1 Flubendazole & levamisole are pretty well tolerated not like the hit or miss approaches to many meds; antibiotics, dyes etc. & don't damage the beneficial bacteria. In the US we can get many drugs other countries don't allow...it can be both a blessing & a curse

hamfist did you get any new fish lately? Did you quaratine them? Any unexplained "other fish" deaths or missing?

You might try feeding after the tank lights are out but room light still on. Clowns tend to be naturally crepuscular, more active during dawn & twilight. But of course it'll be harder for you to see them. Do your tank lights have a dimmable option? Mine have a blue "moonlight" setting but I don't care for that look.

[hamfist]

Many thanks to RedShark1 and NancyD for your comments on this thread and my apologies for going MIA for a while.

I did actually originally treat the loaches with flubendazole twice, and (since my original post) have now treated twice with levamisole. So now I hope I can consider the tank pretty much fully treated for internal gut parasites - whether they were ever an issue or not. I live in the UK, so I can get flubendazole, levamisole and praziquantel-based tank meds for gut parasites.

The tank has seen no new fish since the loaches in my big tank so I don't think I have introduced anything since they arrived. Its now actually so long since I had a death in that tank I can't actually remember it. Must be at least 2 years past.

The tank is already very gently lighted to encourage them. I did try no lights at all for a couple of days, but it made no difference to the "Low light" effect I am currently using.

RedShark1 - the study you link to is rather interesting and clearly one of the very few out there of relevence to the aquarium trade. Its interesting that they took their fish straight from the plane, so before any importer treatments - and I guess importers will vary enormously in their own preferred treatments or protocols with new arrivals. Also of interest was that the study found no evidence of parasites at all in any of the 15 Clowns they dissected. Its a relatively small sample from only one source but it certainly is of note.

The great conundrum is actually what is "skinny" disease in CLs. Is there any definitive scientific evidence of what causes it, or are we still dependent on intelligent guesswork by hobbyists and professionals in the aquarium trade. I suspect it is the latter, although I would love to be shown to be wrong.

As for my loaches, in the 10 days since my first post and they continue to slowly become more interested in eating. I have also now tried them with finely chopped frozen prawn - which they were all clearly very interested in the smell of, but somehow struggled to actually eat the pieces, even though I chopped it absolutley as fine as I possibly could. Possibly they are so fixated on eating pellet-shaped and textured items that they found it difficult to adjust to slightly larger and softer items. We all know how fixated some fish can become on certain types of food items at times. I even had to remove uneaten food as the other fish were stuffed with prawn and the loaches clearly were not going to actually eat much.

I have now got some frozen mussels in their shells, which I shall experiement with - I shall report back !

[NancyD]

I saw there were cysts on the clown loach gall bladders in the study. I didn't see if it said how many fish showed them or how many in any 1 loach. I wonder if that may be a part of "skinny" disease & why some diverse treatments seem to help sometimes but not consistantly. Wormers, antibiotics & even dyes I read have, if not "cured", maybe helped. I wish we had more info but studies are expensive & usually limited in focus. To be honest I didn't even know loaches have gall bladders...(oops)

I've had only 1 clown with some kind of wasting disease over 3 groups over the many years. "skinny"? I don't know. Its behavior was not normal compared to others in its group or other clowns I've kept. It did not eat well & seemed obsessed with anubias flowers & some other foods. I treated all of that batch with 2 rounds of levamisole in QT. When I realized something was wrong with this 1 fish I moved it to a smaller QT. Nothing helped it & I eventually had to euthanize the poor fish.

hamfist, be a bit (well, make that very) careful with raw seafood. I raised discus fry & made seafood mix for them (& others foods, they were very spoiled). I gave my clowns some of the mix (scallops, clams, shrimp, fish & spinach, maybe mussels too, IDR) & also larger shrimp left whole but on a wooden skewer or fork so I could remove any leftovers after a few hours. This was always followed by a large water change. (also after banana or broccoli, but WAY too messy). Once, unknow to me, 1 "stashed" some shrimp in a cave. 8 hours later +/- ? I noticed a strong stench & found my "hoarder" loach dead in a nasty thick stinky slime covering him...& a cave with some bits of shrimp. It was both heartbreaking & very gross. The other loaches were quite agitated, probably from the smell. Take this as a firm warning! Spoil your clowns by all means but be much more diligent about leftover removal than I was. Check in caves & under plants, everywhere!

How about temperature? I liked to keep them 80 or 82F. Too hot & there's less oxygen & food spoils faster. Too cold & they may be sluggish...

Update us as you can. My fingers are crossed for your clowns. Best of luck!

[hamfist]

I saw there were cysts on the clown loach gall bladders in the study. I didn't see if it said how many fish showed them or how many in any 1 loach. I wonder if that may be a part of "skinny" disease & why some diverse treatments seem to help sometimes but not consistantly. Wormers, antibiotics & even dyes I read have, if not "cured", maybe helped. I wish we had more info but studies are expensive & usually limited in focus. To be honest I didn't even know loaches have gall bladders...(oops)

I've had only 1 clown with some kind of wasting disease over 3 groups over the many years. "skinny"? I don't know. Its behavior was not normal compared to others in its group or other clowns I've kept. It did not eat well & seemed obsessed with anubias flowers & some other foods. I treated all of that batch with 2 rounds of levamisole in QT. When I realized something was wrong with this 1 fish I moved it to a smaller QT. Nothing helped it & I eventually had to euthanize the poor fish.

hamfist, be a bit (well, make that very) careful with raw seafood. I raised discus fry & made seafood mix for them (& others foods, they were very spoiled). I gave my clowns some of the mix (scallops, clams, shrimp, fish & spinach, maybe mussels too, IDR) & also larger shrimp left whole but on a wooden skewer or fork so I could remove any leftovers after a few hours. This was always followed by a large water change. (also after banana or broccoli, but WAY too messy). Once, unknow to me, 1 "stashed" some shrimp in a cave. 8 hours later +/- ? I noticed a strong stench & found my "hoarder" loach dead in a nasty thick stinky slime covering him...& a cave with some bits of shrimp. It was both heartbreaking & very gross. The other loaches were quite agitated, probably from the smell. Take this as a firm warning! Spoil your clowns by all means but be much more diligent about leftover removal than I was. Check in caves & under plants, everywhere!

How about temperature? I liked to keep them 80 or 82F. Too hot & there's less oxygen & food spoils faster. Too cold & they may be sluggish...

Update us as you can. My fingers are crossed for your clowns. Best of luck!

Tank is pretty much a constant 79F. I am fairly conscientious about removing uneaten stuff so I will certainly be aware. Appreciate any warnings .

The CLown's first exposure to mussels in the shell yesterday was slightly bizarre. I simply opened a mussel up and left it wide open on the sand. They clearly were attracted to the smell and bustled around it but not one of them had even as much as a taste. They just didn't seem to recognise it as a potential food item. I left it in the tank for 3-4 hours. I don't any of the loaches, or even the Angelfish or blue acara had a go at it at all. It appeared untouched when I removed it. I'm really not sure if I will persevere with seafood. The pellet consumption seems to slowly and steadily be improving. Its probably the way forward.

From mine and others experiences it is mightily strange how different different folk's CLs beahve differently to different foods, how some eat absolutely anything, others are utterly finicky and don't seem to acclimatise to new foods at all.

[NancyD]

Well, sometimes there's no accounting for tastes in people or in clown loaches, LOL. I would maybe try once more with the mussels but for a shorter time frame before you remove it...I like that you keep your clowns a tiny bit cool but that can have an effect too. Just another area you might tweek...in a slow & careful way.

I would love to hear how your clowns react going forward...with foods, temp, etc. Update us as things change, hopefully for the better!