Loach folk,
Do you find that Ich tends to be seasonal?
It is highly seasonal here as nobody tends to bother with artificial heaters, so a bit of a chill in the winter... and you've got to stay on your toes.
It would be interesting if this pattern was occuring when temp was controlled.
Andyroo
Is Ich seasonal?
Moderator: LoachForumModerators
Is Ich seasonal?
"I can eat 50 eggs !"
Ich is not seasonal as it a Parasite. If it present in your tank it will appear if/when any fish is stressed. In the wilds healthy fish can fight it off most of the time I suspect partly due to constant exchange of water.
If you have no ich in your tank you cannot get it.
But fish that look like they are fine can easily be harbouring ich in thier gills as it is the easiest place for them latch on.
If you have tank with healthy fish carrying ich asymptomatically then a rapid temp variations could stress a fish until he could no longer withstand it and then present the dreaded "white spots"
Loaches have such fine skin they always get it first.
If you have no ich in your tank you cannot get it.
But fish that look like they are fine can easily be harbouring ich in thier gills as it is the easiest place for them latch on.
If you have tank with healthy fish carrying ich asymptomatically then a rapid temp variations could stress a fish until he could no longer withstand it and then present the dreaded "white spots"
Loaches have such fine skin they always get it first.
16G bent corner planted ,pressurized Co2, turbotwist 9w, jebo 828 , 36 led
Re: Is Ich seasonal?
Yes, sure.andyroo wrote:Loach folk,
Do you find that Ich tends to be seasonal?
Not Ich itself, but during the colder months you are much more likely to overcool your fish on the way from a fs. This is a very strong trigger for ich, especially in clowns.
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Mark in Vancouver
- Posts: 14252
- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:41 pm
- Location: British Columbia
I agree with Erik, and I do not think you will see seasonal differences in Ich infestation. Tank water is kept at a steady (ususally warmer) temperature in fish shops. Putting a fish in a bag and taking it home is not what causes Ich to infest a tank.
And Ich is not an organism which "blooms" at certain times of the year. No, it is not seasonal.
The seasons do dictate the availability of some wild-caught fish and some loaches are more commonly found in the Northern hobby stores at this time of year. It's the fish selection, not the ich, that is seasonal. Ich is all-weather, sadly.
And Ich is not an organism which "blooms" at certain times of the year. No, it is not seasonal.
The seasons do dictate the availability of some wild-caught fish and some loaches are more commonly found in the Northern hobby stores at this time of year. It's the fish selection, not the ich, that is seasonal. Ich is all-weather, sadly.
Your vantage point determines what you can see.
Not so simple, unfortunately.Mark in Vancouver wrote:Putting a fish in a bag and taking it home is not what causes Ich to infest a tank.
Putting a fish in a bag by itself is not a problem.
Allowing the water in the bag to get cold is. It depresses the immune system and triggers ich.
A fish bag has very little water; if the outside temp is 40F, how long do you think it will take for the water temp to drop considerably?
Two better stores around here, incidentally, are aware of this. They put lots of water in and then wrap bags with clowns in many layers of newspapers when the outside temp is low.
Mike, I think you agree with Erik, Mark and I. The ich itself is not seasonal by nature. It's the cooling of the water, which depresses the immune system of tropical fish and can lead to ich outbreaks, if it is present in the fish or in the tanks.
Nor do I think Mark meant that it's anything to do with the bag other than the fact that fish suffer from rapid temperature change in the colder months, which is why he said "putting fish in a bag and taking it home is NOT what causes Ich to infest a tank" just as you said. "Putting fish in a bag by itself is NOT a problem" (emphasis mine).
Therefore, I think we agree that the apparent 'seasonal' outbreaks of Ich are more related to temperature instability than any natural feature of this parasite.
And yes, there are good lfs's out there. You just have to find them or advocate for your fish yourself when faced with simple ignorance or unconcern on the part of staff in the less good stores.
Nor do I think Mark meant that it's anything to do with the bag other than the fact that fish suffer from rapid temperature change in the colder months, which is why he said "putting fish in a bag and taking it home is NOT what causes Ich to infest a tank" just as you said. "Putting fish in a bag by itself is NOT a problem" (emphasis mine).
Therefore, I think we agree that the apparent 'seasonal' outbreaks of Ich are more related to temperature instability than any natural feature of this parasite.
And yes, there are good lfs's out there. You just have to find them or advocate for your fish yourself when faced with simple ignorance or unconcern on the part of staff in the less good stores.
Shari,
Of course I agree with what you said.
But: seasonal still applies, just as much as it applies to flu or cold (same depressed immunity factor).
...........
And yes, there are good lfs's out there. -- actually I'm still to find a *really* good one. I would not mind to pay double if someone opens a store that operates as Emma described (quarantine+anti-parasite meds before selling.)
Of course I agree with what you said.
But: seasonal still applies, just as much as it applies to flu or cold (same depressed immunity factor).
...........
And yes, there are good lfs's out there. -- actually I'm still to find a *really* good one. I would not mind to pay double if someone opens a store that operates as Emma described (quarantine+anti-parasite meds before selling.)
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Martin Thoene
- Posts: 11186
- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:38 am
- Location: Toronto.....Actually, I've been on LOL since September 1998
Errr.....Mike.
It's seasonal because fish get cold between shop and the buyer's home during the winter. That's what you're saying correct?
Some shops take the cursory precaution of maybe wrapping the fish bag in newspaper before putting it in a brown baggie or whatever during inclement weather but the onus is on the person who is buying the fish to protect their investment by making sure the fish stay warm during the trip.
Just letting them get cool and then moaning about it because they catch Ich or whatever isn't the fish or the shop's fault. Once you purchase the fish it is your responsibility to care for it in every way possible to ensure its continued health and welfare.
Allowing it to get cold is a cavelier and irresponsible thing to do. You shouldn't really be having to treat for Ich or whatever if you buy healthy looking fish and take the correct precautions once you pay for them.
A lot of the problems that people experience are due to buying unhealthy fish because they don't know what to look for, or mis-management of the numerous factors that are essential for good fish husbandry.
Learning by your mistakes is good....if you truly learn, but making those mistakes in the first place can be avoided by doing research before you kill fish. Bumping off helpless animals by poor fishkeeping practices and then professing to others as if you knew the right way all along doesn't make it right. Listening to the years of experience combined between many of the regulars here, sitting back....maybe learning a lot of things you didn't know, inwardly digesting them and putting them into practice will win you friends here. Serious loach keepers like serious loach keepers, not serial loach killers.
In the spirit of internet fish forums, where the phrase "You mileage may vary" was never truer, I always tell people to go find as many opinions on a subject as possible, then see what the general concensus is, but remember in your case things might be a little different. In time, people find the opinions that they regularly find are the correct ones and tend to gravitate there for their answers. So people come to LOL because of the litterally hundreds of years of Loach-keeping experience accumulated here make it the most reliable source for information. If you're going to jump in here and give advice, please make sure it's good advice or expect to be shot down by those who know better. Nobody here has an ego that will not accept being told they are wrong. We are all open to learning. What we will not tolerate is so called 'advice' that will potentially damage or kill innocent fish and detract from another hobbyist's enjoyment of wonderful loaches.
For anyone else reading this....anyone new to loaches. Caveat emptor.....buyer beware. Do not blindly buy into and accept advice from one person. Wait...see what others say. Form a broad spectrum opinion and base decisions on that.
For your fish. You owe it to them.
Martin.
It's seasonal because fish get cold between shop and the buyer's home during the winter. That's what you're saying correct?
Some shops take the cursory precaution of maybe wrapping the fish bag in newspaper before putting it in a brown baggie or whatever during inclement weather but the onus is on the person who is buying the fish to protect their investment by making sure the fish stay warm during the trip.
Just letting them get cool and then moaning about it because they catch Ich or whatever isn't the fish or the shop's fault. Once you purchase the fish it is your responsibility to care for it in every way possible to ensure its continued health and welfare.
Allowing it to get cold is a cavelier and irresponsible thing to do. You shouldn't really be having to treat for Ich or whatever if you buy healthy looking fish and take the correct precautions once you pay for them.
A lot of the problems that people experience are due to buying unhealthy fish because they don't know what to look for, or mis-management of the numerous factors that are essential for good fish husbandry.
Learning by your mistakes is good....if you truly learn, but making those mistakes in the first place can be avoided by doing research before you kill fish. Bumping off helpless animals by poor fishkeeping practices and then professing to others as if you knew the right way all along doesn't make it right. Listening to the years of experience combined between many of the regulars here, sitting back....maybe learning a lot of things you didn't know, inwardly digesting them and putting them into practice will win you friends here. Serious loach keepers like serious loach keepers, not serial loach killers.
In the spirit of internet fish forums, where the phrase "You mileage may vary" was never truer, I always tell people to go find as many opinions on a subject as possible, then see what the general concensus is, but remember in your case things might be a little different. In time, people find the opinions that they regularly find are the correct ones and tend to gravitate there for their answers. So people come to LOL because of the litterally hundreds of years of Loach-keeping experience accumulated here make it the most reliable source for information. If you're going to jump in here and give advice, please make sure it's good advice or expect to be shot down by those who know better. Nobody here has an ego that will not accept being told they are wrong. We are all open to learning. What we will not tolerate is so called 'advice' that will potentially damage or kill innocent fish and detract from another hobbyist's enjoyment of wonderful loaches.
For anyone else reading this....anyone new to loaches. Caveat emptor.....buyer beware. Do not blindly buy into and accept advice from one person. Wait...see what others say. Form a broad spectrum opinion and base decisions on that.
For your fish. You owe it to them.
Martin.
Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
Very well put Martin.
That needed to be said.
So much of disease and helath management comes down to logic and common sense.
You and Mike and so many other "LOL old timers" taught me ALL the best fiahkeeping practices. This is probably the #1 straight shooting forum around.
Erik
That needed to be said.
So much of disease and helath management comes down to logic and common sense.
You and Mike and so many other "LOL old timers" taught me ALL the best fiahkeeping practices. This is probably the #1 straight shooting forum around.
Erik
16G bent corner planted ,pressurized Co2, turbotwist 9w, jebo 828 , 36 led
Martin,
with all respect please note that I've not given any advice on this thread -- neither bad nor good.
Thus,
What we will not tolerate is so called 'advice' that will potentially damage or kill innocent fish and detract from another hobbyist's enjoyment of wonderful loaches.
while absolutely true, simply does not apply here.
(If I ever do give a bad advice -- and like anyone else I may make errors --- I do expect to be stopped. )
As for the seasonal nature of the problem: your argument does not work. Of course, every fish owner should make the best effort to avoid problems, but this is a statistical problem. Some people will always make errors; these errors are obviously costlier during colder weather, and this will result in more ich during the colder months. Additional errors made by the stores and transportation companies will further bend the statistics in the same direction.
The definition of seasonal disease, for example, from
http://www.vetmed.wisc.edu/data/coursem ... tutor.html
is
A disease which has a statistically higher incidence during a specific time of year and which reoccurs every year.
It is a statistical definition; and if someone actually bothers to collect the statistics (which is difficult but not exactly impossible to do) you will get a numeric confirmation.
APPEND. In fact the interesting question is not if ich is seasonal -- but by about how much.
with all respect please note that I've not given any advice on this thread -- neither bad nor good.
Thus,
What we will not tolerate is so called 'advice' that will potentially damage or kill innocent fish and detract from another hobbyist's enjoyment of wonderful loaches.
while absolutely true, simply does not apply here.
(If I ever do give a bad advice -- and like anyone else I may make errors --- I do expect to be stopped. )
As for the seasonal nature of the problem: your argument does not work. Of course, every fish owner should make the best effort to avoid problems, but this is a statistical problem. Some people will always make errors; these errors are obviously costlier during colder weather, and this will result in more ich during the colder months. Additional errors made by the stores and transportation companies will further bend the statistics in the same direction.
The definition of seasonal disease, for example, from
http://www.vetmed.wisc.edu/data/coursem ... tutor.html
is
A disease which has a statistically higher incidence during a specific time of year and which reoccurs every year.
It is a statistical definition; and if someone actually bothers to collect the statistics (which is difficult but not exactly impossible to do) you will get a numeric confirmation.
APPEND. In fact the interesting question is not if ich is seasonal -- but by about how much.
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Mark in Vancouver
- Posts: 14252
- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:41 pm
- Location: British Columbia
Martin makes a good point though, IMO. If it were really cold here (which it isn't compared to the rest of you), I would transport fish in a fish-room temperature box - a cooler or one of the bountiful styro boxes that the fish are shipped in.
Why would anyone take a fish outdoors in a bag in winter? It's such a moot question!
If you're going to buy a fish - and trust that the fish is healthy when you get it, and that the shop isn't infested with Ich, and transport that fish into one of your tanks, your primary concern should be getting it home unharmed.
For that reason, I would say that if Ichthyophthirius multifiliis is seasonal then poor planning is to be blamed on the part of fishkeepers. This organism is not seasonal.
Why would anyone take a fish outdoors in a bag in winter? It's such a moot question!
If you're going to buy a fish - and trust that the fish is healthy when you get it, and that the shop isn't infested with Ich, and transport that fish into one of your tanks, your primary concern should be getting it home unharmed.
For that reason, I would say that if Ichthyophthirius multifiliis is seasonal then poor planning is to be blamed on the part of fishkeepers. This organism is not seasonal.
Your vantage point determines what you can see.
It is not moot. This is what happens every day. You would not do this, I would not do this, but most of first-time clown buyers will.Mark in Vancouver wrote: Why would anyone take a fish outdoors in a bag in winter? It's such a moot question!
In fact, on a recent thread on this forum I saw someone saying "I got new loaches, they are frozen"...
Of course. (My approach is to have a warm car waiting). But again, most people do not even think in this direction. This is why you have so many Ich threads here.If you're going to buy a fish - and trust that the fish is healthy when you get it, and that the shop isn't infested with Ich, and transport that fish into one of your tanks, your primary concern should be getting it home unharmed.
No problem with this. But the epidemiological definition of a seasonal disease I cited above does not deal with the blame, only with the phenomena.For that reason, I would say that if Ichthyophthirius multifiliis is seasonal then poor planning is to be blamed on the part of fishkeepers. This organism is not seasonal.
And, funny enough, even if absolutely everyone knew and try to follow the proper procedures, the disease (not the organism) would still remain seasonal -- errors happen.
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Mark in Vancouver
- Posts: 14252
- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:41 pm
- Location: British Columbia
No, I wasn't inferring that you did this, specifically. I wrote in more general terms.
The purpose of this site, it seems to me, is to impart as much information to new loach keepers, indeed, fish newbies of all kinds, as we can. We can pool the experience here of many long-time loachies.
The good advice about preparing every step (including transportation from lfs to tank) is similar to our love of the best understanding of science (that a parasite cannot be called seasonal in an aquarium hobby situation) that we try to adhere to.
Sorry if I implied something in my previous post. It was not intended.
The purpose of this site, it seems to me, is to impart as much information to new loach keepers, indeed, fish newbies of all kinds, as we can. We can pool the experience here of many long-time loachies.
The good advice about preparing every step (including transportation from lfs to tank) is similar to our love of the best understanding of science (that a parasite cannot be called seasonal in an aquarium hobby situation) that we try to adhere to.
Sorry if I implied something in my previous post. It was not intended.
Your vantage point determines what you can see.
I'd say it's another reason not to impulse buy fish!
Whenever I go on a fish expidition to another town, I always go with a cooler to prevent temp. fluctuations for any fish I may happen to pick up. While many fish stores will give you a shipping styrofoam box if you ask, not all have them handy. Once I bought some fish at an auction 3 hours away from me, and didn't realise my partner had put some baby angelfish in the trunk (not in styrofoam). When we got back, several were dead. If I had known he put them in there, I would have moved them. It wasn't a good experience, but it was a learning experience.
If I'm out to buy fish, I make sure the quarantine tank is empty and ready. I think quarantine is the biggest and best lesson I have learned. Since I started quarantining, there have been far fewer incidents of disease, and I haven't had ich in a main tank at all.
Whether a disease is seasonal or not, it doesn't mean you can ignore it at certain times of the year, IMO. It's not like humans don't get "summer colds."
Whenever I go on a fish expidition to another town, I always go with a cooler to prevent temp. fluctuations for any fish I may happen to pick up. While many fish stores will give you a shipping styrofoam box if you ask, not all have them handy. Once I bought some fish at an auction 3 hours away from me, and didn't realise my partner had put some baby angelfish in the trunk (not in styrofoam). When we got back, several were dead. If I had known he put them in there, I would have moved them. It wasn't a good experience, but it was a learning experience.
If I'm out to buy fish, I make sure the quarantine tank is empty and ready. I think quarantine is the biggest and best lesson I have learned. Since I started quarantining, there have been far fewer incidents of disease, and I haven't had ich in a main tank at all.
Whether a disease is seasonal or not, it doesn't mean you can ignore it at certain times of the year, IMO. It's not like humans don't get "summer colds."
So long, and thanks for all the fish.
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