Ugly clowns
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Martin Thoene
- Posts: 11186
- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:38 am
- Location: Toronto.....Actually, I've been on LOL since September 1998
Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
Hi Mike,
You are obviously an intelligent and educated man. And some of your ideas are certainly interesting, and worth discussion. It may be simply the methodology of your communication that has led to this conflict (if that's what it should be called). Now if you've already decided not to read this long post because you can't even consider any other way, then don't bother going any further. Otherwise, read on (apologies everyone...I have been called verbose before...)
Mike said:
"I do wonder just why such obviously important things as the accuracy and correctness of advice would remain buried in PM's, especially in light of the "full disclosure" policy, but never mind. Not acting on such PM's quickly does seem irresponsible to the posters who might gave obtained a bad advice. Wink"
Accuracy and correctness of advice is what I think everyone here is after. Rather than blast off on newer members of the forum with criticisms, often we will wait and see where they are coming from, while responding or correcting or redirecting on the forum, rather than belittling those who are new and enthusiastic publicly. When a poster continues to blunder blindly on, and begins to take up significant time in re-direction, those of us who've been around a while will confer, off forum, to see if what may be a major issue to one is any kind of issue at all to others. In my view, it would be irresponsible to cut off any new posters in too cavalier a manner. And also impolite. Tactless, even.
Mike also said:
"Most certainly, I've not been in any way telling established people how to run the show; but sadly you chose to see it this way."
I don't think any of the long time posters here thought you were trying to tell them how to run the show. If they did, you'd have heard something much sooner than this. The reality is that some of your contributions raise interesting questions, which when discussed reasonably, might have brought about some further research, or discussion that could have benefited the people here on the forum, and our favorite fishes, which is really why we are here. Not for the people (though we like them too;-)--for the fish.
Though you may not have been trying to tell the established people how to run the show, you have been somewhat snobbish (maybe that's just my opinion) in your proclamations of your 'knowledge' of the 'truth' in a few areas. In fact, you have been downright provocative and opinionated in some of your posts. This tends to raise hackles, and not only among the long termers. Snobbery is always offensive, even if the absolute truth is what's being offered along with it. However, as you have said elsewhere, "...but I do need the awareness of uncertainty..." the truth you know is not necessarily absolute truth, and on a forum, there is always room for discussion. However, tact is a prerequiste for keeping peace in any forum discussions. A forum filled with a bunch of tactless, 'right' people is not a happy place.
We do our best to communicate here, and adapt ourselves as much as we can to the needs of those who come here looking for information. If we know something we try to share it clearly, if we are unclear, we clarify again. If we don't know something, we admit to that, too, and will go looking for answers. If we know a person is new to fish, we take time to explain things that an accomplished aquarist would not need explained. Likewise, we don't waste time going over the basics again with someone who clearly has a handle on that already. In the meantime, we are curious, always learning, and constantly growing in many ways. One of which is communications skills.
You are obviously an intelligent and educated man. And some of your ideas are certainly interesting, and worth discussion. It may be simply the methodology of your communication that has led to this conflict (if that's what it should be called). Now if you've already decided not to read this long post because you can't even consider any other way, then don't bother going any further. Otherwise, read on (apologies everyone...I have been called verbose before...)
Mike said:
"I do wonder just why such obviously important things as the accuracy and correctness of advice would remain buried in PM's, especially in light of the "full disclosure" policy, but never mind. Not acting on such PM's quickly does seem irresponsible to the posters who might gave obtained a bad advice. Wink"
Accuracy and correctness of advice is what I think everyone here is after. Rather than blast off on newer members of the forum with criticisms, often we will wait and see where they are coming from, while responding or correcting or redirecting on the forum, rather than belittling those who are new and enthusiastic publicly. When a poster continues to blunder blindly on, and begins to take up significant time in re-direction, those of us who've been around a while will confer, off forum, to see if what may be a major issue to one is any kind of issue at all to others. In my view, it would be irresponsible to cut off any new posters in too cavalier a manner. And also impolite. Tactless, even.
Mike also said:
"Most certainly, I've not been in any way telling established people how to run the show; but sadly you chose to see it this way."
I don't think any of the long time posters here thought you were trying to tell them how to run the show. If they did, you'd have heard something much sooner than this. The reality is that some of your contributions raise interesting questions, which when discussed reasonably, might have brought about some further research, or discussion that could have benefited the people here on the forum, and our favorite fishes, which is really why we are here. Not for the people (though we like them too;-)--for the fish.
Though you may not have been trying to tell the established people how to run the show, you have been somewhat snobbish (maybe that's just my opinion) in your proclamations of your 'knowledge' of the 'truth' in a few areas. In fact, you have been downright provocative and opinionated in some of your posts. This tends to raise hackles, and not only among the long termers. Snobbery is always offensive, even if the absolute truth is what's being offered along with it. However, as you have said elsewhere, "...but I do need the awareness of uncertainty..." the truth you know is not necessarily absolute truth, and on a forum, there is always room for discussion. However, tact is a prerequiste for keeping peace in any forum discussions. A forum filled with a bunch of tactless, 'right' people is not a happy place.
To be unable to compromise on your methodology is certainly a difficulty that must create problems for you in more places than this forum, I would think. To be forced to express what you 'know' to be true in only one way will always leave many others unable to comprehend your truth. Your methodology may seem the only and perfect way to you, yet clearly (at least here, recently) that method is a less than perfect way to bring others to agreement with you on the 'truth' of your 'knowledge'.Given that I cannot compromise on my methodology --- which is merely to express what I know to be true and hope it to be useful to someone --- and yes, I DO have a problem with doing it any other way --- I greatly doubt that the communication problems would be easy or possible to resolve.
We do our best to communicate here, and adapt ourselves as much as we can to the needs of those who come here looking for information. If we know something we try to share it clearly, if we are unclear, we clarify again. If we don't know something, we admit to that, too, and will go looking for answers. If we know a person is new to fish, we take time to explain things that an accomplished aquarist would not need explained. Likewise, we don't waste time going over the basics again with someone who clearly has a handle on that already. In the meantime, we are curious, always learning, and constantly growing in many ways. One of which is communications skills.
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Dr. Momfish
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Demon Yoyoloach
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Martin Thoene
- Posts: 11186
- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:38 am
- Location: Toronto.....Actually, I've been on LOL since September 1998
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Demon Yoyoloach
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- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:07 am
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Demon Yoyoloach
- Posts: 2142
- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:07 am
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