Disappearing Fins on my clown loach
Moderator: LoachForumModerators
Disappearing Fins on my clown loach
Hello, I have three clown loaches that have recently been loosing shape to their fins. I know that they are super sensitive to medicines and am not a fish doctor, though I try my best, so I don't want to assume anything yet. This is my first time here and I was wondering if anyone had helpful and insightful info. on this issue. Each one has the same problem, some more severe than others. Basically, the top fin is flat rather than pointy, the smaller side fins look as if they are smaller than they should be (on one they look as if they are almost completely gone) and the points on the back fin are almost rounded looking. Does anyone know what could be causing this or what it might be before I get meds (I was thinking fin rot)? Much thanks.
Hey KBick
welcome to the forum, and yes, it does sound like fin rot. What is your water quality like?
Do you do regular water changes? What are your water parameters, like pH, hardness, nitrItes, or nitrAtes, any ammonia present?
How long has the tank been set up and what other inhabitants, are there?
Fin rot can be bacterial or simply caused by bad water quality. We need more info, please
Do you do regular water changes? What are your water parameters, like pH, hardness, nitrItes, or nitrAtes, any ammonia present?
How long has the tank been set up and what other inhabitants, are there?
Fin rot can be bacterial or simply caused by bad water quality. We need more info, please
another less delightful thought
is flexibacter. that can cause fins to quickly "melt". are there any other symptoms? greyishness anywhere on the bodies, mouth erosion are two things that i've seen that MIGHT accompany the fin degradation.
if flexibacter, it can move rapidly or less so depending upon the virulence of the strain. to treat: maracyn and maracyn II dosed concurrently as per package instructions is what i have used successfully in pH 7.8 water. i did two rounds of treatment as all the symptoms were not completely gone after one 5 day regime. i also used levamisole as an immune system booster but the two maracyns may be all that is needed to keep it simple. putting the fish in a quarantine tank with an established filter will help maintain the biofilter in the main tank as these two meds can wipe it out. it is important to watch for ammonia and nitrites if they are used. this, of course, being IF this is what is going on. also a temperature that is 78F or slightly less will be less conducive to the flexibacter although you may not want to use that low of a temp with the clowns. i suppose it depends upon what they are used to. mine are at about 78F right now due to winter conditions.
also you might note whether there is any red or pinkness to the body although perhaps this would be difficult to see on a clown (in the case i had some of the loaches, striatas in my case, had septicemia as well). i did read, when researching about flexibacter, that often people think it is fin rot...of course in this case it may be.
if flexibacter, it can move rapidly or less so depending upon the virulence of the strain. to treat: maracyn and maracyn II dosed concurrently as per package instructions is what i have used successfully in pH 7.8 water. i did two rounds of treatment as all the symptoms were not completely gone after one 5 day regime. i also used levamisole as an immune system booster but the two maracyns may be all that is needed to keep it simple. putting the fish in a quarantine tank with an established filter will help maintain the biofilter in the main tank as these two meds can wipe it out. it is important to watch for ammonia and nitrites if they are used. this, of course, being IF this is what is going on. also a temperature that is 78F or slightly less will be less conducive to the flexibacter although you may not want to use that low of a temp with the clowns. i suppose it depends upon what they are used to. mine are at about 78F right now due to winter conditions.
also you might note whether there is any red or pinkness to the body although perhaps this would be difficult to see on a clown (in the case i had some of the loaches, striatas in my case, had septicemia as well). i did read, when researching about flexibacter, that often people think it is fin rot...of course in this case it may be.
slogan for the day: things may not be what they seem.
Thank you for your suggestions. Well, in response to my water quality, the ph is 7.0, my KH/GH is 5 (which is actually higher than usual), my Ammonia is 0, my nitrites are 0, and my Nitrates are 10-20 which I know is not great. Any suggestions by the way about how to keep them down or what it exactly stems from? So, I do regular water changes (usually about 40% every two weeks). I have cut back on my weekly changes because I thought it might be disrupting the bio filter too much. My tank size is 16 gallons and I have three 2.5-3 inch clowns and two tetras. I am holding out to get a larger tank for a bit, but it is in my near future plans.
In response to their coloration, I have noticed they look a bit redish actually. Where they look redish (and this is not super obvious) is through the middle of their body, almost like a thin red streak, the tip tops of their fin down to the mouth, and on the bones skeleton of their tail. Hmmm... there is no mouth fungus or any other real obvious changes. I am really worried about one of them because his top fin has almost dissapeared and so hasn't his little fins on the side.
I dont' want to add meds unless I'm sure of what's wrong, because I have a history of screwing up the bio filter too much. It is finally normal and I just want healthy fish!
So, does it sound more like septicemia?
thank you sooooo much for your help, I finally entered this forum because I wasn't getting any helpful advise from my lfs. ~Kelley
In response to their coloration, I have noticed they look a bit redish actually. Where they look redish (and this is not super obvious) is through the middle of their body, almost like a thin red streak, the tip tops of their fin down to the mouth, and on the bones skeleton of their tail. Hmmm... there is no mouth fungus or any other real obvious changes. I am really worried about one of them because his top fin has almost dissapeared and so hasn't his little fins on the side.
I dont' want to add meds unless I'm sure of what's wrong, because I have a history of screwing up the bio filter too much. It is finally normal and I just want healthy fish!
So, does it sound more like septicemia?
thank you sooooo much for your help, I finally entered this forum because I wasn't getting any helpful advise from my lfs. ~Kelley
Hi Kelly
it does sound like bacterial fin rot. Possibly flexibacter, but the treatment would be the same. Broad spectrum antibiotics, which will affect your current bio filter 
Maracyn I and II as Barbara suggested is a good choice. Depending on availability you could read labels looking for a similar product. Something that covers both gram positive and gram negative bacteria. I wouldn't recommend waiting too long...sounds like it's moving fast.
I know you mentioned getting a larger tank. That would be a good idea, sooner rather than later. In fact you could use the 16 as a quarantine tank so when/if other issues like this arise you have a tank available for treatment. Safer for adding new fish, and saves destroying the bio filter in the main tank. It also allows you to use the main tank biological filter to support the q tank when treating with meds that tend to wreck that fragile system.
Maracyn I and II as Barbara suggested is a good choice. Depending on availability you could read labels looking for a similar product. Something that covers both gram positive and gram negative bacteria. I wouldn't recommend waiting too long...sounds like it's moving fast.
I know you mentioned getting a larger tank. That would be a good idea, sooner rather than later. In fact you could use the 16 as a quarantine tank so when/if other issues like this arise you have a tank available for treatment. Safer for adding new fish, and saves destroying the bio filter in the main tank. It also allows you to use the main tank biological filter to support the q tank when treating with meds that tend to wreck that fragile system.
good points!
thanks for elaborating shari! another thing that comes to mind is biospira which can reestablish your filter immediately. it may cost about $12 for the smaller portion but you'd only need to use a bit at a time in case the filter fails.
in natick you must be close (relatively speaking) to an lfs that has a refrigerator where this item must be stored. i've seen it work and others here have as well...so if you are able to get it AND treat with the maracyns or some other product, then you needn't fear about a cycling stress! have you been to Tropic(al?) Isle? i think that is the name....i think in Newton. they would, i would think, have such an item. i don't know of any other products like this that work as well although there may be some new ones that others have come across.
if you don't know this shop you might start a new post to mike ophir and james powers as i believe they are familiar with this shop and/or the Boston area fish stores.
the reddishness does sound like how it appeared on my striatas...as i recall it was very subtle but ran the length of the sides of the body...maybe some streaks or redness in the caudal and perhaps other fins as well..
keep us posted and i wish you and your fish the best!
in natick you must be close (relatively speaking) to an lfs that has a refrigerator where this item must be stored. i've seen it work and others here have as well...so if you are able to get it AND treat with the maracyns or some other product, then you needn't fear about a cycling stress! have you been to Tropic(al?) Isle? i think that is the name....i think in Newton. they would, i would think, have such an item. i don't know of any other products like this that work as well although there may be some new ones that others have come across.
if you don't know this shop you might start a new post to mike ophir and james powers as i believe they are familiar with this shop and/or the Boston area fish stores.
the reddishness does sound like how it appeared on my striatas...as i recall it was very subtle but ran the length of the sides of the body...maybe some streaks or redness in the caudal and perhaps other fins as well..
keep us posted and i wish you and your fish the best!
slogan for the day: things may not be what they seem.
Hello, I want to thank you again for your suggestions. As you can imagine, I've been dilligently working on finding a cure to all fish diseases. I wish that wasn't a joke, anyways. I have been doing as much research as humanly possible before going to yes, Tropicle Isle (I am right down the street from there so its great and they are fairly knowledgeable) to get meds. I ended up getting Maracyn and Maracyn II. I know that many of you have had positive results with this,and I hope to as well if this is, in fact, what's going on (either fin rot or septicemia). Just to be sure I am about to do this right, am I supposed to take out the carbon in my filter? In the pamphlet it says its ok to leave the activated carbon filter if it is more than 6 days old. Mine is, but the fish store said to take it out. Hmmm. Any suggestions? For now, I suppose I will take out the carbon but keep in the filter untill any one gets a chance to advise me otherwise. Also, I got the Bio-spira for after med. Thank you again for your wonderful help.
yes go ahead and take the carbon out. i know they say not to but....i always would even though it is supposed to lose it's usefulness in a relatively short time. i never did like that instruction that they give...my thinking was, why take a chance? so i'd take it out. actually i never use it any more at all. it takes all kinds of additives out of the water...or so i am lead to believe.
anyway, glad you found them(the store) and i hope the meds work for you. my daughter bought an extra container of the biospira and when she did water replacements in her new tank, she'd add a bit of the package that she kept in her refrigerator....i hope the store was able to give information on how much to use. just keep watching the water parameters for ammonia and nitrite and if they show, immediately add whatever amount they (the store) recommends. i'm sure they emphasized that it must be refrigerated...or maybe i said that in the last post.
btw, my daughter's tank, a new one, was started with biospira...it and the fish went in at the same time. never one trace of ammonia or nitrite. i was pleasantly surprised as i'd tried other products before (cycle specifically) and it did little good in a newer situation and maybe SOME good in a situation where the biofilter seemed to falter...but i was never quite sure if it did work or not...lots of people said, no, it doesn't work but the biospira is an entirely different thing...a different bacteria apparently. thanks to fish research!
again, keep us posted on how things go. i hope this takes care of the situation.
anyway, glad you found them(the store) and i hope the meds work for you. my daughter bought an extra container of the biospira and when she did water replacements in her new tank, she'd add a bit of the package that she kept in her refrigerator....i hope the store was able to give information on how much to use. just keep watching the water parameters for ammonia and nitrite and if they show, immediately add whatever amount they (the store) recommends. i'm sure they emphasized that it must be refrigerated...or maybe i said that in the last post.
btw, my daughter's tank, a new one, was started with biospira...it and the fish went in at the same time. never one trace of ammonia or nitrite. i was pleasantly surprised as i'd tried other products before (cycle specifically) and it did little good in a newer situation and maybe SOME good in a situation where the biofilter seemed to falter...but i was never quite sure if it did work or not...lots of people said, no, it doesn't work but the biospira is an entirely different thing...a different bacteria apparently. thanks to fish research!
again, keep us posted on how things go. i hope this takes care of the situation.
slogan for the day: things may not be what they seem.
I didn't think to ask this before, but just out of curiosity - with your experience with maracyn and maracyn II, did you do a water change inbetween each daily dose? I don't believe this to be something I need to do, but I just wasn't sure. Because I have gone this far, I want to make sure I don't do anything wrong. Also, I did not get any verbal instructions for the Bio-Spira... although, I have not read the label yet because #1, I have not needed it as of yet and #2, I have been so engaged with observations and patient recovery status. If you have any personal experience with the stuff (or from your daughter) and were able to lend me adivse that'd be swell. Again, I have a 16 gallon tank. I can easily figure it out I'm sure but because this is my first experience using it, it's nice to have a second, more-wise opinion. This is all not so new but new to me. The troubles of keeping fish, not so new but the passion for doing all this, new (in most ways)! Muchas gracias! KelleyB
no water changes between daily doses on the maracyns. the water will get a bit murky looking soon if it hasn't already. do remember to keep daily checks on the ammonia and nitrite levels. hopefully they won't show but is likely they will. of course if you add any biospira during treatment the meds will kill it too...i assume. meds kill good and bad bacteria, thus the potential for breakdown of the biofilter.
i think the package instructions on biospira suggest that it be added (for new tanks) a few days ahead of the fish but people who use it say put them all in at the same time...the fish and the biospira so that is what my daughter did. i don't really know how much you need to use. i think when my daughter did her water changes she added the amount equivalent to what would be needed for the amount of water she had removed. your situation is different. if a low amount of nitrites developed you might want to do a water change before medicating for the day OR you might add a Seachem product StressGuard (NOT stress coat by Jungle...that is an entirely different product)...as it does give some protection from ammonia but the other thing that can be done is to use Prime, another Seachem product....i believe the container has instructions for using larger doses than the regular dechlorinating amount....it detoxifies ammonia and nitrite. i'd try to save the biospira for the end of treatment....as in, when the meds are done and carbon has been added back in and a water change is done, if nitrites/ammonia have shown, then add it at the end. maybe someone else has a better idea on that...of course we can hope you won't need it at all!
are you planning on getting a larger situation for your clowns? i forget if you said how big they are but 16 gallons is not going to be adequate for their needs as they grow. it could be that if they have gotten largish, the size of the tank is part of the problem leading to the fin degradation.
hth,
barbara
i think the package instructions on biospira suggest that it be added (for new tanks) a few days ahead of the fish but people who use it say put them all in at the same time...the fish and the biospira so that is what my daughter did. i don't really know how much you need to use. i think when my daughter did her water changes she added the amount equivalent to what would be needed for the amount of water she had removed. your situation is different. if a low amount of nitrites developed you might want to do a water change before medicating for the day OR you might add a Seachem product StressGuard (NOT stress coat by Jungle...that is an entirely different product)...as it does give some protection from ammonia but the other thing that can be done is to use Prime, another Seachem product....i believe the container has instructions for using larger doses than the regular dechlorinating amount....it detoxifies ammonia and nitrite. i'd try to save the biospira for the end of treatment....as in, when the meds are done and carbon has been added back in and a water change is done, if nitrites/ammonia have shown, then add it at the end. maybe someone else has a better idea on that...of course we can hope you won't need it at all!
are you planning on getting a larger situation for your clowns? i forget if you said how big they are but 16 gallons is not going to be adequate for their needs as they grow. it could be that if they have gotten largish, the size of the tank is part of the problem leading to the fin degradation.
hth,
barbara
slogan for the day: things may not be what they seem.
Hello. Barbara, thank you so much for your wonderful help. You have been more helpful than any fish store I have gone to. I think sometimes they look at me like I have four heads and feel that I ask too many questions. I care about my little loaches so much and being that they can't communicate back it is important to me that I do this right! I know that everybody has to figure it out for themselves but I have done that so often and spent a lot of money doing so, that it helps to be steared in the right direction every now and then.
So, update on my loaches...I am on my fourth day with the meds. The water is super murky and my bio-filter has been disrupted. My tank is showing signs of ammonia and nitrite (about .25 each) and I have been doing small water changes (10%) the last two times before medicating for that day. I believe that I will have to keep doing these small water changes each time before medicating now to keep the ammonia down. Do you think this will disrupt the meds? I could not find the Seachem products you mentioned, the fish store didn't carry either. They did suggest an Amquel product that removes ammonia, chloramines and chlorine however. I bought it but then looked at the label afterwards and it mentioned that it could "reduce medication dyes such as malachite green, methylene blue and potassium permanganate." I had no idea what that meant and didn't know if it would cancel out the medication I was using or not. Any thoughts on this?
So, I have not noticed much of a change with the loaches. I will probably do a second dose of meds. Do you suggest a big cleaning and possibly a kick start to the bio filter before doing the second round to let them have a day of fresh water and O2? Or is it best to just continue the dosing right away after the first set of 5 days? Hmmm....
Also, to answer your question about the tank, I am getting a new tank soon. I would like to get a 35-4_ gallon tank that is more narrow, short and long. I realize now that loaches are better off in this kind of tank (more swimming room on the bottom). Right now they are 2.5 inches. Do you think a 35 gal. would be large enough room for growth? It's just a money and space thing, but if I do this I want to do it right so I'm not opposed to larger. Whew. So many questions, so much work, a little stressful, but we're all hangin' in. Thanks, Kelley
So, update on my loaches...I am on my fourth day with the meds. The water is super murky and my bio-filter has been disrupted. My tank is showing signs of ammonia and nitrite (about .25 each) and I have been doing small water changes (10%) the last two times before medicating for that day. I believe that I will have to keep doing these small water changes each time before medicating now to keep the ammonia down. Do you think this will disrupt the meds? I could not find the Seachem products you mentioned, the fish store didn't carry either. They did suggest an Amquel product that removes ammonia, chloramines and chlorine however. I bought it but then looked at the label afterwards and it mentioned that it could "reduce medication dyes such as malachite green, methylene blue and potassium permanganate." I had no idea what that meant and didn't know if it would cancel out the medication I was using or not. Any thoughts on this?
So, I have not noticed much of a change with the loaches. I will probably do a second dose of meds. Do you suggest a big cleaning and possibly a kick start to the bio filter before doing the second round to let them have a day of fresh water and O2? Or is it best to just continue the dosing right away after the first set of 5 days? Hmmm....
Also, to answer your question about the tank, I am getting a new tank soon. I would like to get a 35-4_ gallon tank that is more narrow, short and long. I realize now that loaches are better off in this kind of tank (more swimming room on the bottom). Right now they are 2.5 inches. Do you think a 35 gal. would be large enough room for growth? It's just a money and space thing, but if I do this I want to do it right so I'm not opposed to larger. Whew. So many questions, so much work, a little stressful, but we're all hangin' in. Thanks, Kelley
those products mentioned are not ones that are in the meds you are using so i'd use the amquel...it sounds somewhat similar to prime. maybe they are the same thing. : )
i do think i'd do a big water change unless you see the pH as being quite different from your tank pH (sometimes it will lower in the tank due to nitrates or whatever...it all depends upon the hardness of your water...AFAIK that is). i don't know if the smaller changes are a problem or not but i'm thinking maybe not...
it might be good for you to post these questions in a new topic so that others with more experience can comment! i'm getting out of my league here and don't want to lead you astray.
are your clowns still swimming and eating? if so that is good. if not...that's something that others should know in a new post.
as to tank size. you might read the thread posted by...oh darn, can't remember the name but something like clownmob...??? as he asks similar questions on size of tank. emma suggests to him that, for clowns particularly, due to their ultimate size and bulk and strength of swimming, that a larger tank is best. she, in fact, recommends a 6' tank! mine are in a 5' tank with only three dithers...i have 5 clowns that are 4-6inches long i guess. with clowns bigger is better. i've had mine nearly two years i guess and they've grown to this size from very small...less than two inches. you know the little ones that stores usually stock. : )
btw, you will still get readings of ammonia and nitrite, i think, if you use the product you have found...at least that is my understanding. i think the products simply render the ammonia, nitrite ineffective. : )
hth,
barbara
and, i hear your concern. i know how devastating it can be to see our fish get sick and then, in my case, i've had to watch them slowly die...: ( is awful!! take care of yourself too!!
i do think i'd do a big water change unless you see the pH as being quite different from your tank pH (sometimes it will lower in the tank due to nitrates or whatever...it all depends upon the hardness of your water...AFAIK that is). i don't know if the smaller changes are a problem or not but i'm thinking maybe not...
it might be good for you to post these questions in a new topic so that others with more experience can comment! i'm getting out of my league here and don't want to lead you astray.
are your clowns still swimming and eating? if so that is good. if not...that's something that others should know in a new post.
as to tank size. you might read the thread posted by...oh darn, can't remember the name but something like clownmob...??? as he asks similar questions on size of tank. emma suggests to him that, for clowns particularly, due to their ultimate size and bulk and strength of swimming, that a larger tank is best. she, in fact, recommends a 6' tank! mine are in a 5' tank with only three dithers...i have 5 clowns that are 4-6inches long i guess. with clowns bigger is better. i've had mine nearly two years i guess and they've grown to this size from very small...less than two inches. you know the little ones that stores usually stock. : )
btw, you will still get readings of ammonia and nitrite, i think, if you use the product you have found...at least that is my understanding. i think the products simply render the ammonia, nitrite ineffective. : )
hth,
barbara
and, i hear your concern. i know how devastating it can be to see our fish get sick and then, in my case, i've had to watch them slowly die...: ( is awful!! take care of yourself too!!
slogan for the day: things may not be what they seem.
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 114 guests