help! Poss sick Clown Loach

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oldscoolboy
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Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:36 am

help! Poss sick Clown Loach

Post by oldscoolboy » Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:44 am

I have a 40g tank 3 clown loachs, 6 neon tets, 4 corys, 6 red fined sharks. One of my clowns may be ill but could be one of unusual behaviours. I have him separated at the moment in a birthing chamber floating within the tank.
He is off food, lays on his side or any position he comes to rest in, breathing rapidly, struggles swimming. no marks on skin no clamped fins nothing else i'm baffled. the other two loachs happy. Water quality good, 15% change three days ago, conditioner added.
Please shed any light on the poor guy.
Thanks

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barbara
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Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 5:42 am
Location: Foothills of Central Maine

Post by barbara » Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:49 am

i'd not keep him in a birthing chamber as that in itself is probably stressful. i'm assuming you're doing that as you don't have a hospital available? how big is he? also is the belly profile convex or concave? the sides of the body behind the gill covers....is it sunken at all?

it seems like you may have a crowded situation unless all these fish are in their juvenile forms...eventually they will crowd the tank if they haven't already.

do you test for nitrates? if so what is the level? 15% is not much water to change and with the # of fish you have that could be an issue for this clown and for the rest of them in time. i'm just assuming/brainstorming here so if i guess wrong please don't take it personally....

also is there adequate hiding places for the clowns? they need that or will suffer eventually.

maybe if you describe the parameters of your tank water that would be helpful to anyone trying to aide in determining what is going wrong here.

these are the things that would be helpful:

pH
ammonia?
nitrites?
nitrates?

and less so probably, hardness. but the above should help. how long has the tank been set up? is it fully cycled? (the readings on ammonia, nitrite and nitrate will answer that last question actually).

what do you have for decor: live/artificial plants, wood?, rocks? ornaments? and so on.

what do you feed them? have you tried frozen bloodworms for this fellow? that's sort of a last ditch attempt to entice him to eat. i think cybermeeze has had success with getting fish to eat by using a product by Seachem...a garlic enticement but i don't recall the specific name. indeed the loach does sound very sick. i hope someone can help. this is all i can think of in the moment.

barbara
slogan for the day: things may not be what they seem.

oldscoolboy
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:36 am

Post by oldscoolboy » Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:27 pm

Yeah the only fully grown are the tets and corys the clowns are about 2 to 3 inches and the reds about an inch longer the the water tests done today are as follows

Amonia .1
nitrite 0 - 0.1
nitrate 25
ph 8.5 on a broad range spectrum

treating at the moment to bring down the ph as 8.5 is our standard tap water same with nitrate

Behind the gills a little sunk in and his belly is round like its full

he swim a little with lots of effort then just give in collapse in any position he land in, if he on his belly give him a few mins he'll just roll onto his side

The tank been going for about 3 months with live plants
i feed a mixture of blodworms, brineshrimp and flake food[/code]

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barbara
Posts: 580
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 5:42 am
Location: Foothills of Central Maine

Post by barbara » Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:24 pm

well there shouldn't be ANY ammonia or nitrites. that's going to create problems which is partially what you are seeing...i assume. otherwise i don't know specifically what is going on. sounds like your tank is overstocked so lots of hiding is going to be welcome if you don't have it already.

also, while fish seem able to adapt to the water they live in, consistency of the pH is said to be important. still 8.5 is high so if it can be slowly decreased and then stabilized (not as easy as it sounds) then a lower pH would indeed be good. my own clowns are in 7.8pH water but it is consistent and also i keep it very clean and the tank, which is a 5' long tank has only the five clowns and three rosy barbs. the clowns are healthy and happy it seems despite the highish pH. i don't allow the nitrates to get above 18-20 if possible and usually try to keep them in the 12.5 range...less would be great but doesn't seem to happen for me. to do this i must change about 40% of the water weekly (that's 30 gallons each change) or, if i stretch it, maybe every 10 days if i don't overfeed. my clowns now are 4-6 inches long tip to tip...a guess.

with nitrates that high in your tap water you should be adding some sort of nitrate remover, imo. maybe someone else can help with this aspect of your problem. i don't have it so can't really recommend anything.

do consider getting a larger situation for your clowns or finding them a home that is larger...maybe a friend or also look for used tanks as they can be not so pricey as new. the redtailed sharks and the clowns all get very large.

hth,
barbara

and sorry not to respond earlier, apparently my email program sees these notices that tell me there is a response as junk mail. go figure.
slogan for the day: things may not be what they seem.

Diana
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Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:35 am
Location: Near San Franciso

High nitrates

Post by Diana » Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:21 pm

Tests for the tap water are high pH and high nitrates?
Can you test the KH or have some water tested at a store for KH (also called alkalinity, carbonate hardness or buffer)

The best way to handle both issues is with reverse osmosis filtration. You could get distilled water at a grocery store, it is similar enough to RO for aquarium purposes. Mix measured amounts of RO or DI water with the tap water, and mix it well. Measure pH, KH, and nitrates. (measure other stuff, too, if you want, but these three are the big ones based on your post)
When you find a mixture that has the pH and KH you want, you will then need to deal with the remaining nitrates.
A product like Amquel Plus is labeled to handle nitrates.
There are resins available in fish stores that will help, one such product is Nitra-Zorb. These are placed in the filter.
Growing live plants in the aquarium will help.
House plants can be grown with their roots in the water and the stem and leaves out of the tank. Philodendron is especially noted for nitrate removal.

You will need to do the mixing of the water at every water change, so when you find out what works, start pricing RO filters. Check the initial price, plus cost of installation, (some have no installation: hook 'em up to your faucet whenever you want, unhook when you are done) and maintenence costs (mostly replacement cartidges) and compare these prices based on $ per gallon produced. Find out also how fast these units produce water. Generally RO is slow. (I get less than 1 gallon per minute on a good day, most units are slower) Nitrates are not good for people or fish, and you may think about using this water for your family, too, for drinking, and cooking.

To introduce the lower pH water to your fish, do it slowly, such as a 10-20% change using the new water a couple of times a week, rather than a 50% change that suddenly drops the pH too much in one opperation.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

oldscoolboy
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:36 am

Post by oldscoolboy » Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:57 am

Sadly he died yesterday evening, been doing a bit more research poss swim bladder disease, ammonia poisoning, at the time of adding new fish, still unsure didn't develop any other symptoms than the ones mentioned.
Regarding the tests they are the as low as the figures go perhaps i should invest in a more accurate kit.
I am trying to ruduce the nitrates with nitrazorb at the mo, slow process.
thinking sholud get an RO filter much quicker compared to the pouch.
The ph is coming down very slowly using drops from a ph down bottle.
since being a newbie its the first fish i lost since having the setup three months ago.
Thank very much for your help

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barbara
Posts: 580
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 5:42 am
Location: Foothills of Central Maine

Post by barbara » Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:04 am

so sorry to hear of your loss! it did sound like he/she was on the way out. on the brighter side of this experience, it seems you are taking all the right steps to create a better environment for your fish. good for you!!
slogan for the day: things may not be what they seem.

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