Treating tank for ich but unsure

[ey]

I noticed on one of the clown loaches (out of 20), there is a white patch (a bit bigger than a white spot) on his black stripe. I can't be 100% sure if its white spot (ich) or just a white mark, there are no other white spots on him or the other clown loaches. I also noticed one of the yoyo loaches rubbing itself against the gravel.

Is it dangerous to treat the tank with ich medication if I'm not sure if there is ich in the tank?

I was thinking of doing a 50% WC (thoroughly vacuuming the gravel) and raising the temp to about 31 degrees and then montior closely the next few days to see if there are any more white spots.

Sorry I forgot the most important details when asking this question, the current water parameters of the tank.

Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 30
pH - 6.6

Please see post directly below for update. Thanks

[ey]

Just went to inspect the loaches/tank again and turned the lights on this time to see better.

The white mark that I orignally thought was white spot doesn't appear to be ich at all upon closer inspection, however I did notice anther clown having a fine white grain/spot on its orange body however not sure if this is the reflection from the outside/natural light, again I can't be 100% sure if it is white spot.

I checked all the other 18 clowns for places that white spots can easily be seen - tail, black stripes on body and caudal fins etc and can't see any white spots there.

I also noticed the scratching behaviour from the yoyo loaches to have stopped.

I am not sure at this stage whether or not to also medicate with ich medicine if I can't be certain there is ich. The LFS said it is safe to treat a tank for ich even if one is not sure whether there is any, however, I wanted to check with others first as I personally feel that one should not treat for ich unless certain the disease is present in the tank, as the medication is not good for the loaches, even at 1/2 dosage.

[BotiaMaximus]

The nitrate at 30 is saying its about time for a water change.

As for the ich I would wait for some more of the expert opinions on here to come in.

I do know these two things.

1. Fish will sometimes "flash" and rub against the bottom when they are irritated by the water conditions - could do this again after the water change if there is a big difference in conditions.

2. You definitely need the lights on to get a good look at your fish when looking for white spot. I learned this the hard way a bunch of years ago when my clowns were acting funny and hiding, I couldn't see anything on them and left the light off for nearly a week trying to let them "chill". When I finally decided something more must be wrong and flipped on the light - Oh S&#T !!!!- they had lots of spots and it was too late for a couple of them. I couldn't see them at all without the light on!

[ey]

Thanks BotiaMaximus.

I just did a 40% water change and vacuumed the gravel. The flashing has stopped. I turned on the lights again to check for white spots and the ones I saw earlier seemed to have faded.

Nitrate is now down to 15.

Thanks for the tips. The problem with the lighting is that the clowns tend not to come out as much when I turn the lights on but always come out when the tank lights are off but room lights on.

Hopefully if it is ich, but detected early then it can be cured in time

The nitrate at 30 is saying its about time for a water change.

As for the ich I would wait for some more of the expert opinions on here to come in.

I do know these two things.

1. Fish will sometimes "flash" and rub against the bottom when they are irritated by the water conditions - could do this again after the water change if there is a big difference in conditions.

2. You definitely need the lights on to get a good look at your fish when looking for white spot. I learned this the hard way a bunch of years ago when my clowns were acting funny and hiding, I couldn't see anything on them and left the light off for nearly a week trying to let them "chill". When I finally decided something more must be wrong and flipped on the light - Oh S&#T !!!!- they had lots of spots and it was too late for a couple of them. I couldn't see them at all without the light on!

[BotiaMaximus]

No Problem Ey,

That's the problem with those Clowns - they like it shady and they also like to hide out in their caves.

I use a standard old style fluorescent single 48" fixture on my 75 gallon for minimal lighting to keep them from staying hidden when the light is on. I also don't have any live plants that I need to worry about which makes that easier.

Seems like all these new lighting systems are really high power and scare the crap outta my Clowns! I have some baby Clowns I'm bringing up to size in a Bio-Cube 30 gallon and I can't use the 10,000k lights it came with. I use a regular 15 watt fluorescent next to it. If I turn on the 10,000 k's I could probably check the guys for Internal parasites!

[Diana]

Ditto Botia Maximus: Fish flash for other reasons besides Ich. If they are frequently flashing then there may very well be something wrong, but that could be irritants in the water, other parasites besides Ich, or Ich.

Fish get scratched, especially noticeable on black fish, and Loaches have some sharp weapons to use against each other if the problem between them is serious. The fish with the one spot might have been hurt by one of his tank mates. Superficial wounds like this heal fast with no medicine as long as the water is kept clean.

Nitrate of 30 ppm is too high, good that you did a water change. I would keep up the water changes, vacuuming the substrate, to keep the nitrate under 20 ppm for sure, and lower is better.

[ey]

No Problem Ey,

That's the problem with those Clowns - they like it shady and they also like to hide out in their caves.

I use a standard old style fluorescent single 48" fixture on my 75 gallon for minimal lighting to keep them from staying hidden when the light is on. I also don't have any live plants that I need to worry about which makes that easier.

Seems like all these new lighting systems are really high power and scare the crap outta my Clowns! I have some baby Clowns I'm bringing up to size in a Bio-Cube 30 gallon and I can't use the 10,000k lights it came with. I use a regular 15 watt fluorescent next to it. If I turn on the 10,000 k's I could probably check the guys for Internal parasites!

I also have the standard fluorescent but you are correct in that it does make it 10 times easier to spot for any thing funny on the fish with the lights on. I find that once a few clowns come out of hiding, the others will soon follow and thats when they can school comfortably instead of hiding. Usually this occurs at night time for me, depends if your clowns are night owls or early (morning/afternoon)

[ey]

Ditto Botia Maximus: Fish flash for other reasons besides Ich. If they are frequently flashing then there may very well be something wrong, but that could be irritants in the water, other parasites besides Ich, or Ich.

Fish get scratched, especially noticeable on black fish, and Loaches have some sharp weapons to use against each other if the problem between them is serious. The fish with the one spot might have been hurt by one of his tank mates. Superficial wounds like this heal fast with no medicine as long as the water is kept clean.

Nitrate of 30 ppm is too high, good that you did a water change. I would keep up the water changes, vacuuming the substrate, to keep the nitrate under 20 ppm for sure, and lower is better.

Thanks Diana. Well the flashing has definitely stopped which is a good sign and perhaps reducing the Nitrate from 30 to 15 has made a difference.

I know what you mean about scratches as I have seen this before when they got scrapped against an ornament while hiding in a tight space. The one clown that has that white mark still has it but does not look like ich and looks like its fading. I noticed another clown has one white mark (its wider than a white spot) on his orange body on both sides. It can only be seen on different angles depending on the reflection of the light, it is very hard to pick up unless you pay extra attention. I have a feeling its not ich and might have been there before, though it doesnt look like a scratch suffered from another tankmate either. Wish I could post a photo but it will be virtually impossible to take a photo of it.

What is the best way to tell if it is ich or not? If it was, would it soon spread to other other clown loaches? I searched the other 18-19 clown loaches and none of them have any visible white spots on them. All the clowns as well as other fish in the tank are swimming and behaving like normal (actually they seem very hungry).

[BotiaMaximus]

Ich is a white spot - round - looks like a small grain of salt or sugar.

Slightly raised.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... N%26um%3D1

That's the longest link I've ever seen - but if it works it will lead you to a picture of one serious case of Ich on a Clown.

It is starting to sound like it is not Ich to me from your description.

If possible can you do another 20% water change today and try to get that nitrate under 10ppm? 15ppm still isn't "great"

Diana had mentioned a product called "NovAqua" by Kordon - don't know if you can get it Down Under or if it would help - sounds like it might if they have some skin irritations from water conditions.

Diana is the genius on the chemistry and water conditioning - she would be the one to get confirmation from.

Best of luck! Sounds like you're heading in the right direction!

Keith

[ey]

Been a few days since I last posted about the signs of white spot in my loach tank. I have since done a 30% WC and got Nitrates down to 10ppm. I have also checked all the clown loaches and other fish for any signs of ich, and have not seen anything until tonight.

The "white spots" that I thought looked like ich on the 2 clowns earlier are still on them, at the same spot. So my conclusion is that it is more of a mark/scratch rather than ich, because if it was ich (white spot), wouldn't the white spot have come off by now as the parasites only stay on the hosts for 48-72 hours?

I have noticed a new white spot on one of the clowns that had the white mark from before. There is this one white spot/dot on its tail, but it does not look like the ich type white spot, more of a white dot, but I can't be 100% sure. It also has some new black marks on its tail. I tried taking photos of it but the white dot it so small I can't get a clear shot of it.

I checked out all the other clowns tails to see if there was anything similar but there wasn't. Some of the other clowns had the same black marks on their tails but not the white dot.

Should I wait a day or two and see if it really is ich before starting any kind of ich treatment? Or should I start treating now as a preventative measure?

All the clowns and other fish look healthy, are swimming actively and feeding well so they don't look sick.

[BotiaMaximus]

A white spot on the tail is a common place for you to see the first spot. It will be like a grain of sugar, but smaller, and be raised.

There is something else I've heard of with black spots and streaks that is completely different - I have zero knowledge on this condition. If it weren't for this issue I would lean towards saying do another water change with a real good gravel cleaning and then do a full course of ich treatment following the instructions posted here on the health forum just so you know that it isn't an issue, but I would hold off until you learn about the black marks. I hope someone with experience with the black marks can shed some light on that issue for you.

[Diana]

Look at some of the older posts about black spots on Clown Loaches. Seems they do this when the water conditions change, for example if the new water is a little different Gh or something. There were quite a few posts (or else a long thread) several months ago.

A single spot that might look like Ich still might actually be one of the minor scrapes that these fish seem prone to, but read about the various Ich treatments and be ready to implement one of them quickly.

Continuing with the water changes and gravel vacs is good.

[ey]

Thanks Diana. I have seen the older posts re: the black spots/marks on the clown loaches. I do know much about Gh levels, but about 2 weeks ago, when I had a slight Nitrite spike (due to someone overfeeding the fish), I had to do 50% water changes on a daily basis for 6 days straight to get Nitrite back down to 0.

During this tme, the pH had gone from 6.4 to 6.8. The reason is probably due to high frequency of WC and the tap water has a pH of 7.0. Not sure if the change in pH will effect Gh.

Can the black marks caused by change in water parameter also be white marks too or is it strictly black? Other clowns (about 5) have the black marks on their tails, but only this fella has a black and white mark on his tail. The black one is like a 10mm line whereas the white one is a 6mm dot.

With white spot, from my understanding, it is a white spot that is very fine and visible, say poking a dot on paper using a 2mm felt tip pen. With the said white dot/spot that I have seen on the clown, is noticeably larger, more like a dot from a 6mm felt tip pen. My conclusion is that it looks more like a scrape than ich.

I checked the clown loaches again and the white mark is still there but I have not sighted any new white marks/spots on this particular clown. Nor have I sighted any other white spots on the other 19 clowns.

Are there any key indicators for ich? Have not seen any signs of flashing from any of the fish, the clowns look healthy and do not appear lethargic. If that white spot was actually ich, should I expect to see this spread to other clowns or lead to more white spots on this particular clown in the next 24-48 hours? If it is ich, would the white spot come off the clown's tail in the next few days, since the ich parasite does not stay on the host (clown) for long periods?

I will do a 30% WC (plus gravel vac) tomorrow.

I will get some ich medication tomorrow in case I need to treat the tank, but at this stage, I want to hold off on it, as I have read that the clowns do not take well to ich medicine.

Look at some of the older posts about black spots on Clown Loaches. Seems they do this when the water conditions change, for example if the new water is a little different Gh or something. There were quite a few posts (or else a long thread) several months ago.

A single spot that might look like Ich still might actually be one of the minor scrapes that these fish seem prone to, but read about the various Ich treatments and be ready to implement one of them quickly.

Continuing with the water changes and gravel vacs is good.

[Diana]

I would have expected more Ich to show up within a day or two of you seeing the first spot.
I think you are simply seeing minor injuries. Very good to keep monitoring them, though. A clean white mark is healing. If it gets red or the area around it gets red this suggest bacterial infection. If the white area starts growing fuzz this is fungus. Either of these conditions would need treatment. Keeping the water extra clean to avoid bacteria and fungi is a lot better. Keep up the good work!

I have only heard of the black spots, not white, as a reaction to water changes. It could well be that the more frequent water changes you did when the nitrite spiked could have started the black spots showing up.
The link between GH and pH is sort of tenuous. Nothing to indicate that water with a different pH is the sole cause of the black spots.

[ey]

Thanks for the assuring post Diana, makes me less worried now.

Like you, I would have expected to see more ich to show on the same clown or other clowns within a 24-48 hour time frame.

It might be minor injuries as you say, as the clowns could have easily scrapped against the ornaments/driftwood in the tank (especially when moving in tight spaces). What made me worry was that the white mark was in the shape of a little dot, similar looking to the dreaded white spot (ich).

I monitored the clowns closely again today and the same white dot on the tail of the clown is still there. It does not have any new additional white spots on him, neither do any of the other clowns. Looks like it might just be a scratch from injury.

Based on that, would it be recommended to keep the water changes and gravel vac up and put a hold on medication for now? Will continue monitoring the clowns closely daily.

I would have expected more Ich to show up within a day or two of you seeing the first spot.
I think you are simply seeing minor injuries. Very good to keep monitoring them, though. A clean white mark is healing. If it gets red or the area around it gets red this suggest bacterial infection. If the white area starts growing fuzz this is fungus. Either of these conditions would need treatment. Keeping the water extra clean to avoid bacteria and fungi is a lot better. Keep up the good work!

I have only heard of the black spots, not white, as a reaction to water changes. It could well be that the more frequent water changes you did when the nitrite spiked could have started the black spots showing up.
The link between GH and pH is sort of tenuous. Nothing to indicate that water with a different pH is the sole cause of the black spots.