*Blasted whitespot*

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mvigor
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Post by mvigor » Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:51 am

I see that no one except me has chimed in to say that my salt level of 2 teaspoons per gallon was safe for loaches, so perhaps it was "too high."

However I found myself in a situation like yours...the fish had so many ich parasites that they were at risk of death within the week. I also knew that it would get a bit worse before it got better--as the parasite lived through one more part of it's life cycle.

If things in your tank are as dire as you imply, you don't risk much by at least doubling the salt level. My 5 happy clown loaches are proof that 2t/gal didn't harm them in any noticeable way. Might as well try it if they look like they might die anyhow.

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shari2
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Post by shari2 » Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:50 am

can't say I agree with you there, mvigor.
loaches are salt sensitive fish to begin with. to double the normal dose, when common sense would dictate decreasing rather than increasing, is irresponsible and asking for trouble.

it worked for you, and I'm glad it did. but I doubt you could guarantee it would do the same for Ashleigh, nor would I say that 'they might die anyhow' is a good rationale for going with an overdose. judicious use of salt is just that--prudent, practical, sensible. Turning a tank into a salt water marsh is overkill, I think. (and yes, pun intended 8))
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mvigor
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Post by mvigor » Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:03 am

I am not arguing with you, but I do want to clarify something.

When you emphasize normal dose do you mean normal LOACH dose, or just normal dose for freshwater tropical fish in general?

I have seen very good articles stating that anywhere from 1 to 3 teaspoons per gallon is the accepted normal dose for tropical fish.

Below is from the linked article:
The dosage needed for this is 1-3 teaspoons per actual gallon of water. One strain of Ich has been reported to withstand as much as 5 parts per thousand of salt* so do not rely on light salt dosage to be 100% effective. Most strains will succumb to low levels of salt though
My personal recommendation is 2 tsp. per gallon as a target. This gives me a good solid level with a 1 tsp. per gallon buffer zone in both directions. In other words I can be 1 tsp. per gallon higher than I think I am and my fish should be OK, or I can be 1 tsp. per gallon lower than I think I am and my ich will still die. Many people do quite well with 1 teaspoon per gallon but I don’t like variables so I go higher. This buffer zone is more necessary with hobbyists who don’t know the actual (vs. estimated) water volume of their tank.
Just keep in mind that if the poster doubled the salt they are using right now (from 1T/5gal to 2T/5gal), they would only then be moving to just above 1t per gallon. {Reference for anyone who might not keep this in their head...3 teaspoon is 1 Tablespoon}

Another article

At any rate I understand that the Clown Loaches have unique requirements and I retract my implication that this is a good idea for anyone's Clown Loaches other than my own.
Last edited by mvigor on Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ashleigh
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Post by Ashleigh » Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:45 pm

Hey everyone, just back to see the fish and they seem to be doing ok, theres a bit more midwater movement instead of sitting on the bottom. Saltdose has slowly been raised to 1table spoon per 15gallons, and will raise to 1tablespoon per 10g over evening/tomorrow morning so I guess tomorrow evening I will achieve 1talespoon per 5gallons.
They havn't showen any signs of discomfort to the salt added so far (it was dissolved into a bucket of water added over the day, I guess the key right now is low stress).

If no change is seen by say the weekend/start of next week I will maybe be forced to try chemical treatments but dumping in a load of chemicals is not my first choice, these fish have been with me a good few years and Id hate for anything to happen to them through impatience of not seeing improvements straight away.

PFK stated that was it Germany that Malachite Green was classed as illegal or something and people were trying to work out another successful treatment? Role on their success, sooner rather than later.

Its funny how the ones that have een with me and have had it efore are mostly clear, yet the 'newer' additions are plastered in it; possile part immunity?? May try and post pictures tomorrow to see what the views are with this.

Again thank you everyone for your ideas, Im sure there will be a way to get rid of this.

Ashleigh

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shari2
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Post by shari2 » Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:37 pm

Yes, I've read in a few places now, that some fish, after successfully getting over an ich infestation DO develop some level of immunity. That's at least one bit of decent news to take with a grain of salt. 8)

The med resistant 'super ich' strains are also being studied.
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chefkeith
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Post by chefkeith » Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:09 pm

What is the definition of "sensitive" and how it is recognized? Also, exactly what salt is it that loaches are sensitive to? Aquarium salt? Marine Salt? Epsom Salt? Kosher Salt? Table Salt? Canning Salt? Hopefully everyone knows the differences in these salts.

IMO, there is way too much mythology with salt and its usage to be covered in 1 post, 1 thread, or even 1 article. There will always be contradictions. That’s why I usually avoid ich treatment threads at LOL . I don't know all the facts. Like which loaches are sensitive, what is the definition of sensitive, and how is this sensitivity recognized with a fish that has a bad case of ich.

I have used 2 tsp of (canning) salt per gallon of water with clown loaches and eradicated ich completely. I know that clown loaches can handle this level of salinity comfortably, but ich cannot survive it. At lower salinity levels, I'm not so sure that all the ich will be wiped out. I've tried treating ich at 1 Tbls per 5 gallons and the ich wiped out most of the clowns. That's my experience for what it's worth.

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Ashleigh
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Post by Ashleigh » Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:38 am

Well its kind of good news today; the whitespot does not seem to be spreading and on those fish that were covered; it does not seem worse-if anything Id say there a few less spots. Im going to take pictures of the badly infested ones over the next few days and if there is any difference to be seen, Im sure it will be better seen from pictures than from memory. They are alse much much more active; doing the proper loachie dance :) they might just pull through judging on how they were.

Heres a pic of a 1.5inch; one, if not the most heavily infested fish
Image
Image
Image

Il put up some more of him/her in the next couple of days and can see if there is an improvement. Again I just want to thank everyone for all their ideas and suggestions, it has been a great help and Im sure the fish appreciate it just as much as I do so thank you :)

Ashleigh

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shari2
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Post by shari2 » Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:09 am

Awww. Poor sick little puppy.

Here's hoping it gets better every day.
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helen nightingale
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Post by helen nightingale » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:33 am

best wishes to them Ashleigh. i hope they pull through it soon

mickthefish
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Post by mickthefish » Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:53 am

wellll ashleigh, looking at those pics i can tell you that is not whitespot/ich,
it's either a form of velvet or what we had a few years ago, which was a single celled organism.
we sent a fish to manchester museum and they give us that verdict, but could'nt give us a cure for it.
we have found the cure out of desperation to be the interpet no 7.
hope you can cure them bud i know it's chemicals but if it can cure the fish faster than natural thats got to be better for the fish.

mick

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Ashleigh
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Post by Ashleigh » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:03 pm

Anything I have ever read about velvet has classed it as 'fine yellow-brown dust like appearance'. 'The main symptom of velvet and what has given it its name is the presence of golden or brownish dust on the body and fins of the infected fish. The disease can in fact look rather good on some fish. The golden dust often first appears around the gills as that often are the first place the disease infects.'
The size of the spots on the loaches are quite large in size now; velvet is considered to be much finer?

Whatever it is, the salt appears to be having some affect on it. Uv sterilizer is also on the way in the post; its only a matter of time before its gone :twisted:

Ashleigh
Last edited by Ashleigh on Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mvigor
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Post by mvigor » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:05 pm

Ashleigh--what temperature are you keeping the tank at right now?

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Ashleigh
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Post by Ashleigh » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:07 pm

It currently fluctuates between 30-31 degrees C. 30 temp is set at but when the heating is on in the house it heats up by a degree or so.

Ashleigh

mvigor
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Post by mvigor » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:10 pm

At that temperature, I would expect the ich parasites to be moving through their life cycle very rapidly. If your fish aren't free from white spots after 72 hours at that temp, then some of the parasites are living through the temperature and salt levels to begin another circle of life.

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Ashleigh
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Post by Ashleigh » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:12 pm

The salt was only fully added by yesterday morning; as reccomended by Diana's post due to not stress the fish even more. So it would be about 24-36hrs max that it has been in the tank at full blast.

Ashleigh

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