Follow-up question for clown in qt

[LK]

Hi, I posted earlier about my new 4-inch loach, rescued from a pet store where he was donated by his previous owner. I'm starting a new thread for this follow-up question. I'm hoping to get a few opinions/stories/personal experiences about how long to keep a single clown in isolation in qt. I don't want to be irresponsible about my qt period, and normally I'd go for 3-4 weeks, but I'm trying to weigh the risk of introducing something bad into my community tank against the cruelty factor of keeping a big, sociable fish in solitary confinement in a 10g tank for weeks on end. If only there were 2 of them in there, I wouldn't be concerned about it. But this is my first time to qt a solitary loach, so I'd really appreciate hearing about other people's experiences and opinions on the qt time period. The details on my new loach: he arrived at the pet store Feb. 1st, and I bought him Feb. 5th. So he's been in qt with me for a little over 48 hours now. Thanks in advance for any feedback!

[LK]

Hi again, I've tried searching the archives for info on this but can't find anything, so let me add another follow-up question: when qt-ing a clown loach, what are your standard practices regarding meds? Do you treat with any medications proactively, even if there's no sign of illness? Or do you wait and see if the loach shows any symptoms? If you do treat proactively, what do you use? Do you use several meds all at once (such as antbiotics and parasite meds) or do you treat one medication at a time? Thanks again!

[shari2]

If you know where the clown came from, and know that there were no parasite issues, or that it had been treated successfully already, I'd consider moving him if he doesn't eat in a week. If you don't know anything, I'd just watch and wait for at least 2 weeks, maybe longer, if he settles in all right.

Put a pvc pipe or a good hiding spot somewhere (that you can see into) for him to get out of the spotlight and try tempting him to eat with frozen bloodworms just after you turn out the lights. Sit still and watch the tank for a little bit to see if he comes out to eat. Meanwhile, a 4" clown in a 10g will be tight, but for the short term, better safe than sorry. Just make sure the tank is warm, he has a place to hide (where he thinks he can't be seen) and let him settle in a bit.

The more you know about the clown the better you will be able to decide how long you need to continue the quarantine period. Ultimately, it's up to you. You can see how his behavior changes and if you notice anything going wrong, it will be on you to decide. If you don't know enough about the clown to feel safe adding him to your tank, you could try adding two smaller clowns into the qtank with him to see if he will then eat. Of course, that will put them at risk (if there is a risk-you don't really know yet) but at least they'll be in a place where you can take appropriate measures.

Try to make sure that the water in the qtank is the same or quite close to the tank he's going to be in later, that will make the transition when it happens that much easier on him.

I know you're nervous and just want to do what's best for the clown. Don't stress too much. If he seems fine he may well be fine.

The best you can do at the moment is observe, get him eating, and acclimate him to your water and your routine. When he does join the other clowns they will sort it out. Stress can cause problems for fish, so try to eliminate as much stress from his routine as possible. If he's going to come down with ich it should happen within a week to 10 days. Other parasites may take longer to manifest and it will be difficult to tell if he's wasting due to parasites or lack of nutrition. If he's eating and getting thinner, treat with levamisole HCl before you put him in the main tank.

Give it some time. If he's bolting around the tank, smashing and injuring himself you'll have to re-evaluate the value of the qtank period versus the risk to your main tank.

Unfortunately, I can't just give you a blanket answer on this one. Observation is the key during the qtank period. Watch, observe, watch some more and post back (in the same thread so we can keep track) if you see anything disturbing or just to share. Pics would be nice. We love pics.

[LK]

Thanks so much for the advice and reassurance! I just feel so bad watching him sit around all sad and lonely in qt. I'm sure he's thinking this isn't much of a step up from the tank at the pet store! But here are some pics of his qt set-up, and him inside his little hollow log decoration. Sorry for the bad pic, but I think he looks pretty healthy. He's not too active, but he does get up around dawn and do the clown loach up-and-down swimming thing. I just wish I'd gotten him directly from his previous owner--would've saved us all a lot of stress.... Due to his few days at the pet store, I don't know what he might've picked up.

[chefkeith]

Nobody usually buys fish with visable signs of ich or other parasites.

Sometimes the new fish will have ich in the gills or other parasites you can't see. You might not ever see the parasites in quarantine even if you quarantine them for months.

I suggest always treating any new fish for parasites. Otherwise you're taking huge chances. It only takes one tiny parasite to go unnoticed to wipe out an entire tank of fish.

I learned this the hard way.

[LK]

Chefkeith, I have Rid-Ich+ on hand. Do you suggest treating the qtank with it as a preventative measure? Supposing no ich cysts ever become visible during treatment, how long would you continue medicating in the absence of symptoms? Thanks for your feedback.

[Ashleigh]

I would agree with Chefkeith that it should stay in the quarantine until you are sure there is nothing wrong-just because something is not visible to the naked eye, does not mean it is not there-I have learnt the hard way before unfortunately-its a horrible experience.

I am keeping a lone clown loach in with some rummy nose tetra's in quarantine and until she grows a bit-I do feel bad and sorry for her but then again, I would hate to risk my 20ish other clowns. During this time I treat for internal parasites and watch for any behavior that would strike me as odd, I would only treat for Ich if the fish was showing signs and symptoms. She has taken a long while to come around (Chris wanted to get her another friend-but that would just be introducing new fish into a half quarantined one durrrr ) but she is starting to.

The only thing I can suggest is try and give it a bit more cover-make it feel a bit more secure, I find mine only comes out when there’s natural light coming through the tank, not when the lighting unit is on.


Ashleigh

[chefkeith]

LK- Rid-ich is ok, but you may want to find a full spectrum med or one that can be used in combination with an internal anti-parasite med, like prazipro.

A standard treatment should only last about 7 days.

[shari2]

He looks like a handsome fellow. Not skinny, good fins, nice posture. What are the dark blotches on his operculum (cheeks)? Pigment or something else?

Keith is right that there doesn't have to be visible spots for ick to be present, but I would not treat for ick unless there are signs there may be a problem.
Rapid respiration, or flashing of the gill area are a couple of symptoms of hidden ick. If nothing like those behavioral signs or spots manifest in 7-10 days he likely doesn't have that particular issue at this time.

While he's in the qtank I would stock up on a few things like melafix, ick med, and a broad spectrum antibiotic as well as levamisole powder (which you will likely have to order online). Problems always seem to manifest when you can't get your hands on the meds you need.

I don't know if you've posted it or not, but what are your water parameters?
temp
pH
hardness
nitrite
nitrate
any ammonia?

What filtration do you have in the qtank? And the same info for the bigger tank plus it's occupants would be nice. As well as a pic.

[connor]

I'll add my story as an encouragement, albeit a weak one.

About 2 months ago I bought 5 botia kubotai. All looked very healthy, active, and generally FAT. Size was about 7cm each.

I put all 5 directly into the main tank and all but one of the kubotais were perfect within a few minutes. In fact 4 of them were already eating 5 minutes later.

All but one. The 5th kubotai immediately darted under a piece of wood and I didn't see it again for a few days. It hardly ever came out of hiding and wasn't eating a single crumb of any food I offered. The other 4 kubotais behaved just like you would expect them to behave.

About 2 weeks ago I saw the "problem loach" again and it was very close to death. Completely skinny, not a single gramm of fat left on the body and it was so weak it had problems to even swim. From my experience death was imminent, at best 1 week away.

Well, on this day a fortnight ago, I put in some food as usual .. and it came out and ate a little bit for the very first time in a month. Since then it behaved normal. It is still very skinny but it's strong enough to properly swim around again and I think it will survive.

Sometimes fish are just weird .. I have no clue why my loach behaved like that. As I said .. all 5 looked fine and well fed, only one refused to eat.

So don't loose your hope, maybe your loach just needs some time. Hopefully it's not going (almost) the full way to starvation like my kubotai.

-Connor

[LK]

Thanks to everyone for the encouragement. I think things are going relatively well. He's swimming around this morning, and I believe he ate some of the food I left in the tank yesterday. I also think he pooped, and it looks normal And Shari2, here are the stats you asked for. These are for the main tank:

temp - 76-78
ph - 6.8-7
hardness - 180ppm, rather hard
nitrate - 10
nitrite - 0
ammonia - 0

The qtank has similar stats, except the nitrates are barely measurable, and I've had some ammonia issues, but I keep it under control with water changes. I'm sure the qtank is cycling a little. It's running a Whisper Power 20 hob, with a biological filter pad I keep running in a filter on the main tank. I put it where the carbon would usually go, and then it's ready (theoretically) when/if I need the qtank, but this filter pad had only been in there about 2 or 3 weeks, so I guess it's not got enough bacteria yet. But like I said it's been ok with enough water changes.
The main 55g tank runs 2 hob filters: An Aquaclear Power Filter 70 (300 gph) and a Whisper Power 40 hob (210 gph). The occupants are 3 clown loaches, under 2 in. each; 2 dwarf red honey gourami, 1.5 in. each; 9 long fin rosy barbs, all under 1 in. each, not counting the tails; and 6 celestial pearl danios, about 3/4 in. each. That's all the info, here are some pics of the main tank, going from left to right (sorry for the algae, and plus one barb in the pic has an uneven tail, but it was like that when I bought it):




and here are some more pics of him, sorry they're kind of blurry. I was trying for a close-up. He's got a scratch on his head that he had when I bought him. As Shari2 saw, he does also have these dark spots on his cheeks. I've looked closely, and I think it's just his coloration--the spots are symmetrical, same spots on both cheeks. And on his sides, he also has the faint beginnings of a spot that never happened.



the scratch has been healing fine. it's part of the reason i felt so sorry for him when i saw him at the pet store. he'd obviously been someone's pet, and he'd been cared for relatively well, and then somehow he'd ended up in that store, with no other loaches, a scratch on his head, and trying to wedge himself under that driftwood
even though i wasn't planning on any other fish, i'm glad i bought him. thanks again to everyone for the advice!

[chefkeith]

Rapid respiration, or flashing of the gill area are a couple of symptoms of hidden ick. If nothing like those behavioral signs or spots manifest in 7-10 days he likely doesn't have that particular issue at this time.

If this were true, ich infestations would be very rare.
Most fish have been at the LFS for more than a week or 10 days and they might not ever show signs of having ich.

The reason why ich is so common is because it is nearly impossible to detect before it gets into your tanks.


Take Mark's disaster for example.
http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php ... highlight=
Where even you posted this-

So sorry to hear this Mark! Below is a little interesting information from
Dr. Erik L. Johnson, Veterinarian and Fish Health Specialist. 2/29/96:

Freshwater Ich (Ichthyophthirius multifilis) is a ciliated protozoan that encysts under the epidermis of the fish; and, in its encysted condition, causes small white spots all over the fishes body and fins. In some cases, Ich spots may be present, but will not be visible. You may still see them under the scope, or you may see them exclusively on the gills. This is how infected fish may get into a tank without being detected, even if quarantined for a period of time. Asymptomatic carriers can sustain a population of Ich in a tank or pond for an indefinite period. Sometimes an owner will purchase a new fish who, being immunologically naive to Ich, will contract the condition immediately upon introduction to an 'endemic' (already infected but asymptomatic) group of fish. If a fish contracts Ich, and survives without treatment, they have shown strong immunity to re-infection, indicating that the potential for a vaccine exists, and is being worked on at University of Georgia and other institutions...

Ich rapidly kills smaller tropicals and goldfish, while often sparing the larger varieties (fish such as Oscars and Koi). Damage to the gills is the primary way it kills, but damage to the skin with secondary bacterial infection may also figure prominently.
Its life cycle is roughly 2-5 days, but can be longer (5+ weeks!) if the water is cool, much shorter if the water is warmer. There is the old rumor that warm water eradicates it. This is substantially true when temperatures exceed 85 degrees, however; there are strains coming out of Florida and detailed by researchers at University of Florida that can survive and thrive up to NINETY degrees or more! Recall that many of our bread and butter species of tropicals come from Florida, and so may harbor this heat tolerant strain...

Interestingly, some research at Oklahoma has revealed a strain of Ich that does not have to leave the fish and whose Ich packet (trophozoite) remains under the epidermis (safe from medications) and the tomites swarm out under the epidermis. The lesions look much like Carp Pox lesions, being large, flattened, and waxy looking. This parasite is harder to clear because it is the free swimming tomite that we can kill with medicaments.

Prevention is attended at the wholesale level by the maintenance of a 0.3% salt solution which crenates (kills) the emerging tomites. We do not recommend that you as a hobbyist maintain this salt level all the time because live plants can be killed by this, and all species of fish are NOT universally tolerant of this. Still, many have found that salt is a very effective annihilator of Ich infections if normal precautions are observed.

[LK]

I just read the old thread in the link above--and that's a terrifying story. I've been to the pet store to shop for meds, as Shari2 suggested. Several people mentioned parasite meds, so I bought something called General Cure by API, which is metronidazole and praziquantel. I was going to get an antibacterial, but I was intimidated by the choices (tetracycline, erythromycin, furan, and triple sulfa). I thought I'd wait and instead post a list here of all the meds I have at home, and if you guys suggest using any in the qtank, I will. I have:

Melafix
Pimafix
API Fungus Cure
Mardel Maracyn (only 1 tablet)
Maracyn-Two (only 2 tablets left)
API Quick Cure
Mardel Coppersafe
Kordon's Ric-Ich+
Kordon's Prevent Ich

I've read online that the Kordon's organic ich treatments like Prevent Ich, which is naphthoquinone, aren't actually that effective, but I don't know. The Maracyns are antibiotics, and I have enough to start treatment today, and then I'd have to pick up some more. And of course now I have the General Cure anti-parasitic med I just bought. The new loach is still not showing any symptoms of anything, still relatively active, breathing normally, and eating. Would you treat with any of the meds I've listed? And which ones? Thanks again.
One more thing-I've never treated for parasites in any of my fish. Would it be worth it to use the General Cure in the main tank, too? I know that the praziquantel in it is not supposed to harm the biological filter, but what about metradinazole?

[shari2]

Thanks for the reminder Keith.

I still wouldn't recommend prophylactic treatment for ich, however.

[LK]

How about prophylactic use of any of the other meds I listed above, or General Cure? Thanks!