I'm losing them! Help!

[peterdavis]

I have 5 of six clown loaches left after a weeklong battle with ick. One has just died. The fish are in a 20 gal. tank with 3 corys, 3 odessa barbs, and 3 neons. The ick appeared on the clowns first and then on the neons. I treated w/ M. Green (API Super Ick Cure) half recommended dose with water temp at 85f. 1 dose, 2nd dose 48 hrs later. There was no noticable improvement after another 48 hrs. I did a 20% water change and added another dose last night. The clown died this afternoon. The other five are visibly distressed swimming at the top and hanging up the sides and in the corners. I did another 20% water change tonite and put the charcoal filter back in and added some Cycle. The neons lost the ick spots two days after first dose, but the clowns still look pretty bad. I am worried about continuing dosing and cycling the tank...

If anyone has any ideas let me know as I am getting rather desparate!

Thanks

[newshound]

i wish this was the first post on the subject...
as always give us full details.
everything you can think of.
or else solve your problem by doing a search on the subject...

[peterdavis]

I've tested the water it's OK at the moment. I don't know exactly what else to tell you...

I did a lot of searching and reading on the subject. The only thing I come up with is maybe it is a resistant strain of ich.

[fish_frenzy]

How long has this tank been set up? Keep the temp high, it speeds up the life cycle of the Ick. I would do another 20% water change and and be sure to gravel vac well to get the beasts from the gravel.

Some people add aquarium salt, if you choose that route, go light on the salt as loaches are sensitive to it. I would do 1 tsp per 10G, always opt for the light side of dosages.

I would do a water change in the morning and another in the evening for the next few days. No more than 10 or 20% or you may kill off your bacteria colony.

Hope this helps
Tammy

[helen nightingale]

its helpfull if you could give reading of your water - sometimes people may have been mislead, and believe their water is fine when it isnt. i dont want you to think i am saying you may be wrong when you say its fine, but its aways safer to check!

so what is the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, temperature, and hardness of the water?

have you raised the temperature and airation of the water?

do you extensively hoover the substrate when you do water changes?

is the API Ick cure the only treatment you have tried? i am not familiar with that product - i am assuming you followed the instructions exactly, and have given the full number of treatments to kill off the different stages of the disease?

have you quarantined any of the fish? Ick can still be present, even if there are no visible spots. you dont want to create a viscious circle, with the treatment clearing up some of the stages of the disease organism, and fish picking up more from the water.

if you are worried about the tank cycling, are your readings stable, or are you getting fluctuations?

[Diana]

Peterdavis, dealing with Ich and a cycling tank at the same time can be worrying, but here is what I would do:

Daily water changes. There are 2 goals here: One is to keep the ammonia under .25 ppm, and the nitrite under 1 ppm.
The other goal is to remove fallen Ich organisms before they reproduce.

Dosing meds: Dose 1/4 in the morning, and 1/4 in the evening. Total daily dose is at half strength. Follow label directions for how often to dose (daily, every other day...), and re-dose with every water change.

Ich has a life cycle that goes like this:

You see white bumps on the fish. This is the Trophont stage. The organisms have been on the fish for a few days, growing bigger until you can see it. Medicines do not affect it at this stage; it is protected by the fish's slime coat.
The Trophont falls to the floor of the tank. This is where the vacuuming works as part of the control. This stage is called the Tomont. It is dividing, and sending lots of babies out to infect the fish. The more Tomonts you remove the better.
The babies are called Theronts. This is the only stage that is vulnerable to medicines, including salt. They swim in the water for a day of so. The more water changes you do the fewer of these there are. You need to be very consistent with keeping medicines up to strength in the tank because every day there are new Theronts in the water.

The whole life cycle at tropical temperatures takes about a week. You can speed this up by raising the temperature as high as the fish will handle it. The problem with higher temperatures is that water holds less oxygen at higher temperatures, AND Ich can infest the gills, further compromising the fish's oxygen supply. Increase the aeration in the tank. More water circulation increases the oxygen.

When you say you saw no change after just 2 days medication think of this:
3-4 days before you saw anything the first Theronts landed on the fish and burrowed in. (Becoming Trophonts) Each day more landed on the fish. The ones you saw on the first day you saw Ich had been there several days. Then you began treatment. But remember, the ones on the fish are not getting treated. The ones that landed on the fish the day before you began medicating are still too small to see, but by the 3rd or 4th day they have grown big enough. This is what makes it seem like nothing is happening for almost the first week of treatment.
If you count from the day you begin treating, and are very consistent to keep the full dose that the fish can handle (ususlly half for many Tetras, Loaches and Catfish) then you will continue to see Ich for about 4-5 days for sure, then the quantity will drop. There will still be some new spots, some Ich may be growing slower, or for whatever reason did not get exposed to the medicine.

The full course of treatment at average tropical temperatures (upper 70s) is about two weeks. If you raise the temperature (low to mid 80s) you might shorten this to about 10 days. You want to maintain medicine for about 3-4 days beyond the time you last saw a spot on any fish, because, again, you cannot see the Theronts at all, and you cannot see the Trophonts until they have been on the fish for several days. You want to be sure the fish are not getting re-infected, and that there is not a lingering Trophont, perhaps hiding in the gills, that falls out and reproduces when the medicine is gone from the tank. You can kill the Theronts only when the medicine or salt level is high enough.

With any pest, parasite or simlar problem, even weeds in a lawn, the trick is to find some way of killing the parasite that does not do permanent damage to the host. Loaches do not tolerate salt very well, but they also have a hard time with most medicines. Some people here have had good success with salt.
For non-sensitive fish I would dose the salt slowly (over 3 days) to raise the level to 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons. Maintain it at this level with every water change (gravel vacuuming is a great control measure, too) and when the treatment is over do not lower the salt level very fast. Allow regular water changes to lower the salt level over the course of several weeks.
For sensitive fish it might be OK to use 1 tablespoon of salt per 10 gallons, but I am not sure if this will kill Ich.

For fish that cannot handle any medicines (and no salt) I have heard of cures that involve just water changes and a bare bottom tank.

[peterdavis]

The tank has been going 3.5 years.
Ammonia -0.5mg/L
Nitrite- 0.1mg/L
PH- 7.5
GH- 140mg/L (mod. Hard Calgary Water)

So far conditions are stable but I worry that the medication and higher water temp deplete oxygen levels further stressing the fish.

I gravel vac'd well twice over the last 2 days during 20% water changes.

I added recommended dosage of aquariun salt. Water temp is still at 85f.

As this is still the first week of treatment I have just used the one brand of med.

Dosage length so far: 120 hours @85f. Lights off as well as not to photoreact with the Malachite Green...

[starsplitter7]

Lower the water level if you have a HB filter, so the water falls into the tank and splashes. This is an easy way to increase the oxygen in the water while your fish are distressed. Good luck to your fish.

[peterdavis]

Thanks to all who responded to my panicked plea. I will post a note here tomorrow night of my progress for those interested.

Peter

[starsplitter7]

Please do keep us updated.

[peterdavis]

I am afraid it doesn't look good. Two more loaches died today and the other three are in bad shape. Their breathing is very fast and they are becoming rigid. I think they are probably dying from secondary infection. The other fish appear to be ok.

It really sucks that I have raised them for 2 and a half years from the size of my pinky to five inch monsters only to have them get wiped out within one week.

[helen nightingale]

sorry to hear that. at that sort of growth rate, you must have cared for them well.

fingers crossed for the rest of your fish. i hope they pull through

[loachcoach]

I'm sorry to hear about your losses. I feel your pain; I discovered ick in one of my tanks last night (thankfully, it's not the loach tank). I am in the process of raising the temp and adding salt.

It's rough to loose your fish, especially after you've reared them for so long as you have with your clowns.....I always have a little twinge of guilt when I loose one.