Dying Botia Striatas...don't know why!?

poeticpyro · Post by **poeticpyro** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:48 pm

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH!!

Unfortunately I lost one more this morning... grand total of fish I have alive is 4. They're doing better... one of them has a nice little belly and comes out to take food and clicks away. The others are swimming in the cave and I'm guessing coming out at night for food. Have some freeze-dried bloodworms from the Betas and decided to use those... they seem pleased.

I'll definitely keep you all posted. Sounds like I didn't acclimate them right... or that they might have internal parasites. I have meds for that, but am waiting to see if the new foods will help. If I can get one to come out and hold still I can get a little picture and post it.

THANKS for all of your help!!

Truly.

helen nightingale · Post by **helen nightingale** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:26 am

i am so pleased they are starting to do better. please dont forget to let us know how they do

mickthefish · Post by **mickthefish** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:39 am

i think your on the home stretch now bud, try some chopped earth worms that should beef them up a bit more.

mick

poeticpyro · Post by **poeticpyro** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:18 pm

UPDATE!!!

So from my original 8... I have... 3. Two fatties

I'm proud to say and one weakling, who is clinging for dear life. I'm trying to figure out what it was... have been keeping daily water param checks and nothing's really changed at all. I have done small water changes each time a dead loach was found, so maybe that's also helped. Two of them are adorable little guys who LOVE to come out and harass the angelfish and steal the bloodworm cube... they then take it to their little cave and eat it...clicking away loudly. The one scrawny one is very weak... doesn't swim well, but loves it when I catch him in a net and squirt some blood worms at him. He graciously eats 3-4 and then gets released. I realize it's stressful to catch him, but he is gaining a little bit of weight this way. I don't plan to continue to do it, only until his swimming is more normal and he has a little bit of a belly on him.

I'll get pics as soon as I can. In fact one is resting on top of the castle ornament now looking at me.

Hopefully I can contact the store and get about 2-3 more of them to increase their shoal.

THANKS for all of your guys' help!

Ashleigh · Post by **Ashleigh** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:53 pm

Long as you keep those tummies well filled, hopefully the weak one will make it through. I have had clown loach very thin when I bought them that are still gaining weight, it takes a lot of time to see it, but when you do its such a relief

Try some cyclops, chopped earthworms, white andblackworms-I feed this mixed in with blood worms three-four times daily to under weight youngesters and it seems to make a big difference

Ashleigh

helen nightingale · Post by **helen nightingale** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:08 pm

you are doing a great job. you have 2 happy fatties, and 1 who seems to be trying to become a fatty

a bit of stress i s better than wasting away

poeticpyro · Post by **poeticpyro** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:53 pm

I just hope that the place I bought them from will give me a discount or something on additional botias since it was obviously not my fault... why would they all die at different times and different days if it was just a water quality issue? Wish I knew what happened... and I hope they get better... one's sleeping at the moment... on its side... hate how loaches do that, always makes me nervous

chefkeith · Post by **chefkeith** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:50 pm

You should figure out for sure what the problem was before blaming the fish store. The fish are ultimately your responsibility once you leave the store.
I believe you said the fish were skinny to begin with and that there was a little ammonia in the bag water. That could be the root to this, but we here don't know all the facts yet.

I think some of us still want to see some pictures of the fish and the tank. Many of us are good at seeing problems that may exist. Also we have no idea about how the aquarium is set-up with filters, substrate, and decor. All these things could be important to solving what the problem was.

Next time, please answer more questions about the water chemistry. Just knowing the pH is not good enough. It's also good to know the Kh, Gh, and TDS of the bag water you got the fish in. Equally important is the KH, GH, and TDS of the aquarium water and the tap water.

You'd be surprised how often there is a water chemistry problem right in front of our noses. I had one for years that I had no idea about until I got a TDS meter. I found out that I had all kinds of rocks leaching and that my TDS was bouncing during water changes. I removed the rocks and switched my water change method from a large weekly to a slow daily drip and that solved the problems.

poeticpyro · Post by **poeticpyro** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:24 pm

the weakling ended up dying... he just looks very skinny... sunken in body behind the head, don't think there is much that I could have done at that point. Used to have clowns and when they got that bad it was just a matter of time. The other two are zipping throughout the tank and seem happy... *crosses fingers*

We'll see.

*sigh*

Ashleigh · Post by **Ashleigh** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:18 pm

Sorry for your loss.

I used to buy skinny clowns thinking a decent feed would sort them out before I came here and learnt that there were a number of contributing factors. It is possible to treat and fish to make a recovery in a number of cases, although some are just to weak.

With regards to it not being your fault, you would really need to test your water. A small change in water chem will affect weaker fish first, hence you could have one or two passing away over the course of a few days/week. If you could pick up a kh and gh test kit for future that would be ideal, tds meter would also be a useful tool as chefkeith has already said.

It would be advisable to stay away from unhealthy looking loaches-pinched in, inactive or even just underweight unless you are able to treat with appropriate meds for internal parasites since they are a major problem other wise you risk losing a large proportion of fish again-no matter how fat tummies are at feeding, a heavy parasite load will prevent those nutrients the loaches need from being absorbed in the appropriate amounts, so they will still keep on getting weaker regardless how much they eat and eventaully you will end up with a dead fish.

Perhaps you could treat the remaining two as a precaution....

Ashleigh

poeticpyro · Post by **poeticpyro** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:38 pm

perhaps...

Now I'm trying to find a good type of bottom feeder for the tank... 55gal with two angel fish... and two striatas if they live. Just bummed that I've NEVER had issues with even the most fragile fish in this tank and now these two are the only survivors out of 8. Really doesn't make sense. The store said my water quality was better than theirs... they did all of the kH testing etc. It's not worth the investment in the test kits when the store will do it for free. They're thinking it was internal parasites or something since their next batch they got after I bought them ended up dying as well.

I'm thinking a good bristlenose pleco and maybe a couple more striatas if I'm daring enough... *sigh*

helen nightingale · Post by **helen nightingale** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:54 am

i dont think i would agree with you that its not worth investing in the kits. my TDS meter is so easy to use and very usefull when acclimatising fish and doing water changes. if you have the tests you need at home, you can use them as as when needed rather than having to wait and go into the shop. you can also use them to stop big swingas happening when you do water changes.

if the shop said your water is better than theirs, then there is a problem. be very wary of buying fish from them that look anything less than in perfect condition, and acclimatise them slowly. the "shock" of being put into clean water can give a fish stress.

Ashleigh · Post by **Ashleigh** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:17 am

Better than yours would suggest that there is a different water chem, which upon adding your new fish to your tank they will have the shock to deal with. This is why you should have your own test kit on had to measure these differences and decide what the best way is to progress. If there is a big difference then it would be in your best interests in setting a seperate tank up with the same water chem as the store and slowly adapt the water to your chem over a week/2/3 depending how big the difference is. If there is a very small/no difference then you are ok to introduce to your main tank in the normal way.

Again I would urge you to treat your new striata with parasite meds as a precaution, after all you can about these fish and have their best interests at heart?

You should always have your own test kit, checking tap water and tank water before and after water changes on a regular basis to determine is there are any underlying problems.

I would not add any more fish until you work out what is going on and get those fish treated.

Ashleigh

00fil00 · Post by **00fil00** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:01 am

Why did no one here immediately tell you it was skinny disease? (also known as knifeback and clown loach disease). Isn't this meant to be a loach forum? I'm not an expert on loaches but I have lots of experience and I can tell you that out of owning 6 clown loaches all at different times, only 2 didn't come with skinny disease. It's VERY VERY common in clown loaches and the very first thing anyone should have asked you as soon as you mentioned clown loaches instead of what is your water quality, was "is it skinny"? Poor show loach community, I thought you guys actually owned the fish you give advice on?

Anyway, There are 2 trains of thought on how to cure it if, indeed, it's not too late. 1st and most sensible is use a dewormer. This is what I used. I didnt see any worms come out but they perked up a lot. The sticky say you can go talk to a farmer and use sheep wormer but why take unnecessary risks if you don't know whats in it? Go for the ready made up and water safe Discus wormer - in the UK one product is called "Wormer Plus".

2nd is to use an internal bactericide which I have no experience in as it seems to go against logic. If your fish is skinny and being sucked of nutrients from the inside, my 1st instinct is to think worms stealing the nutrients. Besides, an internal bacterial infection would kill your fish so fast you wouldn't have time by the time you had diagnosed it. Before I found out about all this I had clowns with skinny disease for months, now a bacterial infection wouldn't let them live that long would it.

Ashleigh · Post by **Ashleigh** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:58 am

00fil00 wrote:Why did no one here immediately tell you it was skinny disease? (also known as knifeback and clown loach disease). Isn't this meant to be a loach forum? I'm not an expert on loaches but I have lots of experience and I can tell you that out of owning 6 clown loaches all at different times, only 2 didn't come with skinny disease. It's VERY VERY common in clown loaches and the very first thing anyone should have asked you as soon as you mentioned clown loaches instead of what is your water quality, was "is it skinny"? Poor show loach community, I thought you guys actually owned the fish you give advice on?

Anyway, There are 2 trains of thought on how to cure it if, indeed, it's not too late. 1st and most sensible is use a dewormer. This is what I used. I didnt see any worms come out but they perked up a lot. The sticky say you can go talk to a farmer and use sheep wormer but why take unnecessary risks if you don't know whats in it? Go for the ready made up and water safe Discus wormer - in the UK one product is called "Wormer Plus".

2nd is to use an internal bactericide which I have no experience in as it seems to go against logic. If your fish is skinny and being sucked of nutrients from the inside, my 1st instinct is to think worms stealing the nutrients. Besides, an internal bacterial infection would kill your fish so fast you wouldn't have time by the time you had diagnosed it. Before I found out about all this I had clowns with skinny disease for months, now a bacterial infection wouldn't let them live that long would it.

Not necessarly, lack of appropriate feeding by pet shops would result in an underweight fish, not necessarly 'skinny disease'. The reason water chem was asked for is that the fish started dying off day by day after being added to the posters tank, certain options have to be ruled out, it could have been a result of shock being added to a tank they were not introduced to correctly, hence the skinny, weaker ones would pass off first. The poster did state that fish were doing better and gaining weight, I did state in my last post if you did read it, to treat the remaining fish for internal parasites, whether my advice is taken up is another matter. Wormer plus is not a complete treatment for parasites-you need a flat worm and a round worm treatment, as well as an antibiotic for after to treat for any secondary infections after parasite treatments are completed.

Skinny disease is not a disease as such, it is a name/description for a fish that exibits extreme weight loss, most likely because of internal parasites.

There is no need for insult on the forum, we care about loaches in particular with a passion on here, I think reading various posts that would be clear. As you can see there is a sticky at the top of the forum asking everyone needing help with treatments to post up their tank setup, water chem etc. All this info was not provided, it is needed for the simple fact that even if you treated a fish for 'skinny disease' and for secondary infection it would not recover in a tank with poor water quality, osmotic shock etc.

Each situation needs to be asessed individually.

Ashleigh

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