Skinny Clown w/ red gills

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tmcmullen
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Post by tmcmullen » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:05 pm

My local fish guy recommended aquarisol regularly to prevent ich, and since I had a recent ich problem I took him up on his advice.

It's a 55g with 3 yoyos, 5 clowns, 1 dojo, and 10 rainbowfish of various types. I'm looking into a 75g if I can find a good deal on one.

So, do you think the rock I'm using is safe? Is the vinegar test accurate?

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shari2
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Post by shari2 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:37 pm

hard to say on the rock without seeing it. could you try posting a tank pic again? the vinegar test is usually a good indicator.

What temp do you keep the tank at? Clowns are warm water (80's) fish. your rainbows and dojo would probably prefer cooler water. Clowns kept in cool water will suffer from stress and the various stress related illnesses that go with it (like ich).
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Diana
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Post by Diana » Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:37 pm

Mollies are hard water fish. GH at 75 pppm and under is not good for them. Set up a different tank and get the GH up around 300 ppm, and add the salt to this Molly tank, if you want to keep them.

Skip the salt in a fresh water tank. Fresh water means no salt.

Good that you are able to drop the nitrate like that. Keep up the water changes so that 20 ppm is the highest that it climbs between water changes.

Ditto Shari's concern about the temperature requirements of your fish.

Many Rainbows are warm water fish, and their native water fluctuates so much in the pH that they are fine in most tanks. Generally most are from somewhat soft water, but this also can vary. As a group they are quite adaptable fish, but the optimum range of conditions depends on species.

What kind of Rainbows?

Yes, Dojo Loaches are not tropical fish. They thrive at much cooler temperatures than Clown Loaches. Best not to keep them in the same tank.

I would not keep medicating the tank to ward off Ich. I have not had Ich in my tanks for several years. I do not medicate the tanks, nor keep salt in the fresh water tanks.
I prevent Ich with good water conditions and quarantine new fish to prevent contaminating the main tank.

The vinegar test is OK for telling alkaline reacting rocks.
Another test is to put the rock in a bucket of water and measure the GH, KH and pH over a week or two to see if there is any change. A rock that is capable of raising any of these in a week or less might not be a good idea in a soft water tank.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

tmcmullen
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Post by tmcmullen » Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:37 am

Thanks for explaining my problem with the mollies. I had no idea the hardness of the water could be killing them. Now I feel bad! I have one in the tank, and I really don't have time to set up and take care of a 2nd tank. I want to simply concentrate on my 55 gal.

The Dojo is 9 years old now and has done well in the tank at 78 degrees. Lately I've been keeping the temp around 78, and no lower. The dojo was my first fish investment, and I didn't do my homework back then. I fell in love with the clowns and they're about 9 years old now too. Since the dojo didn't seem to have any problems I didn't see any reason to separate them. He's the only cool water fish I have now.

My rainbows are Boesemani's, Threadfins, and Austrailian, which are fine up to 79 degrees F, and like hardness of 8-25, and 8-19 dGH. I realize my water is harder in the tank, but don't know how to correct that.

I have always added 1T salt per 5 Gal. Are you saying I shouldn't?
I thought it was important for gill function.

I have an Eheim Professional II filter. I keep ammo chips and carbon in the filter.

What is the best way to post pictures? I've seen people put pics on that show in the post instead of a link. I can't figure out how to do it and I'm a fairly savvy pc user.

I looked up rocks in my aquarium. Here are pics I found online:

Zebra Rocks Image
Large slate rock similar to this Image
Other slate like this Image
Rose Quartz similar to this Image
And clear blue quartz/crystal like this, but clearer and smoother: Image

Question - I have a slate rock in my garden I'd love to put in the tank, but I'm sure it's been exposed to chemicals like pesticides and fertilizer. Can it be cleaned and made aquarium safe?
...............................
i edited to show your pics. best way to post an image from another site is to right click on the image, select 'copy image location' then paste that into the post. highlight the full url and click on the Img button in the Image body list bar or type [ img ] at the front and [ /img ] at the end of the url (leave out the spaces). if you're posting your own images they have to be stored online somewhere then you follow the same procedure.

shari


Ditto what Diana said. No, you don't need salt in a freshwater tank unless you're treating for something or housing fish that prefer salt in the water.

As for the rock, I wouldn't risk it. You can get clean slate cheap. Unless it is a remarkable rock in some way...?

tmcmullen
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Post by tmcmullen » Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:37 pm

Diana and Shari,

Given all the information I have provided, do you think after stopping Aquarisol that I should add anything else to the water?

I have well water, and I use a water softener. I usually get the kind that has iron-out because I have high iron content in my water. When I change the tank water I use the filtered water from the softener, I do not turn it off. Is that good or bad? Would Iron-out be good or bad for the tank water?


Many, many thanks!

Diana
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Post by Diana » Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:03 pm

I do not know how the Iron Out water softener product works. Is it an exchange process?

Salt is not needed for gill function. Look at how many fresh water streams and rivers and lakes there are that have no salt and tons of fish.
For a brackish water tank (a very limited ecosystem) and marine tanks, use the proper salt and mineral blend for the fish.

In a fresh water tank the minerals are important, but the level is very low. There is so close to no salt in fresh water ecosystems that the other minerals are more important.

Salt is important to the companies that sell it. It keeps making them money.
Salt can be used as a medicine in certain cases, but if the fish and parasite have already been accustomed to salt it is harder to use as a medicine.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

tmcmullen
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Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:28 pm

Post by tmcmullen » Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:10 am

I'm attempting to load images of my tank now. Let's see if I got this right.

Image

Image
Image
Image

Yeah! It worked!

Thank you both for all of your help.

Diana
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Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:35 am
Location: Near San Franciso

Post by Diana » Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:23 pm

The simple answer is, NO you do not need to fatten the wallet of fish stores by buying unnecessary products.

The longer answer may be found here:
Most of my tanks follow these guidelines:
Substrate to suit the fish and plants. Some tends to soften the water a bit (Soft water fish) other substrate tends to harden the water (Lake Tanganyikan tanks) Most substrate is a plant-friendly neutral material.

Decorations are often driftwood with a minimum effect on the water. (Older wood that has stopped producing tannins) Some tanks have oak bark which can add tannins to the water. A few rocks. Rock caves for some fish (again, Lake Tanganyika).

Live plants. Lots of live plants.

Water additives: Tap water is somewhat soft, but high pH. Water company adds chloramine.

Dechlorinator splits the chlorine-ammonia bond, then locks up the chlorine and ammonia. I use Chloramine Buster which has no other ingredients. No slime coat enhancers, no electrolytes, no salts, no buffers... ALL it does is deal with the chloramine. Period. A 16 ounce bottle handles 8000 gallons of water. I dose it with an eye dropper. (about .5 liter is enough to treat 30,000 liters)

Hard water tanks get baking soda for higher KH and Seachem Equilibrium for higher GH.

Soft water tanks have peat moss added to the prep barrel and circulated to lower the pH a bit.

The brackish water tank is made brackish by adding the salt and mineral blend used for marine aquariums, but at a lower rate that creates a low end brackish water.

All tanks (Except brackish water tank) get plant fertilizers which are agricultural grade powders, dissolved in water.

All tanks (Except brackish water tank) have DIY CO2.

All tanks are fed a very long list of foods in rotation. Certainly the digested remains of these foods count as 'additives', but I think the plants remove a lot of this as fertilizer and trace nutrients.

What these tanks do NOT have:
Constant dosing of any medicine to 'prevent' disease or parasites.
Sodium Chloride. (Except brackish water tank)
Slime Coat enhancers.
Bacterial additives sold to promote the decomposition of wastes.
Bacterial additives sold to remove ammonia (Nitrogen cycle bacteria)
Heavy metal removing products. (These may be useful in some areas. My local water does not have high levels of metals that need to be removed with chelators)
Ammonia removers in the filter (Zeolyte or other products)
Activated Carbon in the filter. (I keep some on hand in case of emergency)
Other chemical filter media that is supposed to soften the water or remove stuff from the water.
Algae controlling products. Algae is removed by the fish, or by scraping.


Precautions to reduce/prevent disease and parasites:
QUARANTINE all new fish. No exceptions.
Ultra violet sterilizer can be quickly set up on any tank with even a hint of 'something wrong' so that whatever is getting started can be stopped or reduced before it gets out of hand.
Rotation of foods to promote fish health. Think of all the foods that fish eat in the wild. I try to replicate that concept with all sorts of foods. Any one food might not be a complete food, or might not be the favorite of certain fish. Over time, though, all the fish eat plenty. Also, a fast day about once a week.
Never buy feeder fish.
Carefully inspect all the tanks in a store that might be commonly filtered with the tank of fish I am interested in. Do not buy fish from a tank whose neighbor tank has sick fish.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

tmcmullen
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Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:28 pm

Post by tmcmullen » Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:22 pm

Wow, that's a lot of great info Diana. I don't know how you do as much as you do and still have time for yourself. I want to do what is best for the fish to keep them healthy and happy. I have no luck with the plants. I've spent money on them and they never seem to make it. I don't know what I'm doing wrong in that category. Maybe because I don't have a CO2 system?

I had invested in the substrate that I use before getting the clowns, have had it in the tank for 9+ years and haven't changed because it would be a huge job to do so. I research every fish I am interested in before purchasing so that I don't add incompatible fish or cool water fish to my warm water tank.

I have a good quality filter rated for a 150 gal tank.

I don't need dechlorinator because I have well water.

I don't use any additives besides what I listed, and I have stopped adding salt and aquarisol on your recommendation. I don't use algae control products.

I also look at neighboring tanks when purchasing my fish. I've learned from my LFS that chain stores use one filtering system for a number of tanks, which can mean that an infected fish in one tank can infect all tanks using the same filtration system.

I have always used the ammonia removers and carbon in my filter. I guess on your recommendation I should stop. I'm nervous about that because for 9 years my tank has been doing fairly well, and I don't want to start having problems now. I do think I overfeed my fish though. It's hard to tell if you've given them enough, and the rainbows devour as much as they can before it hits bottom, so it's difficult to get food to the loaches. I'm working on that though.

If you have additional suggestions please feel free to voice them. I appreciate your help.

Diana
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Post by Diana » Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:15 pm

Sounds like you have a good system going. If you are exchanging the ammonia removing product regularly so it does not get full and quit working then you are probably fine with it. Otherwise the ammonia level is going up and down and the nitrifying bacteria population is also going up and down.
Activated carbon gets full withing a few days, but most people keep it in the filter for a month or so. It is not doing much for the rest of the time.

Aquatic plants need more light than is common over most aquariums. If you want plants look into better lighting as your first move.
Java fern and Anubias do not need much light, and are not rooted in the substrate, so gravel does not matter. Tie them to the wood. (That is some really nice wood in your tank!) They will do OK with at least 1 watt of light per gallon, but will do a lot better at 2 watts per gallon. Seachem makes a carbon substitute called Excel that works well for low light tanks. The plants I suggest are also not so great tasting to the fish, so they are less likely to get eaten.

If you can add a light fixture to the tank look for a fluorescent bulb that might be labeled 'Cool white' or even better 'Daylight'.

To feed bottom fish when there are highly active upper and mid tank fish set up a pipe with a T at the bottom. Drop the food into the pipe so that it ends up at the bottom, in the T. The burrowing/cave fish will quickly learn that there is a feast inside the T, and will enter to eat. Upper level fish are usually more reluctant to enter caves, and will be distracted with floating foods while the Loaches and Catfish are figuring out about the T. One way to make this is with PVC pipe. The vertical piece might be 3/4" pipe, it does not have to be very big. The T would be large enough for the largest fish to safely enter, and might have a bit of pipe horizontal, to make the T longer for the food to stay in there until it is eaten. For larger fish you might look into PVC as large as 2" diameter.
If you buy this at a store that specializes in plumbing and irrigation the T might be labeled 3/4 x 2, SSS. This means that one opening is 3/4" and the other 2 are 2". The SSS means that it is all slip, not threaded. I would not bother to glue it together, just push it together by hand. PVC glue is safe (once it has dried) if you want to use it. You can also get the T with the 3/4" part with threads, and get a piece of pipe with threads. Might be a bit more secure than a slip fitting that you just push together by hand.

To feed less, skip one day per week.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

tmcmullen
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:28 pm

Post by tmcmullen » Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:34 pm

Diane,

Thanks again. I will look into the pvc pipe, or I may add a piece of pvc pipe to an area that I can easily access with a tube and use that pipe as the feeding location. I could drop some food in there and some under the driftwood. I absolutley love that wood. I picked it up for $10 when I was seeing similar sized pieces going for $30. I don't know why it was priced so low, but I really do like the way it adds to the tank. I've only seen fake driftwood look nearly as good. It took a very long time to get the water clear after I added it 8 yrs ago! ;)

Sorry it took a while for me to respond. I've been busy. Again, I greatly appreciate all of your advice. You are very thorough!

Take care,

Teri

trisela
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Post by trisela » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:05 am

These things sometime happens. In my opinion you should shift it at a separate place and then keep a regular eye.
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Secondly you take a sample of the water to the lab so that, it can be verified, also you can take a sample of the skin if possible .
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John Wilsons
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Post by John Wilsons » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:40 am

Great post.It is sad but true that not many people are aware of fact the best cardiovascular disease treatment is pure and high quality fish oil.

Baileofsolamnia
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Post by Baileofsolamnia » Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:50 pm

[quote="shari2"]your tap water is good.
the red gill issue was likely nitrate related. clowns really need clean water!
do more frequent water changes and alot of your issues will resolve themselves.

why the aquarisol?

sorry if I missed it but what size is the tank and what fish do you have in it?[/quote]

im sorry if this is in the wrong forum, but i saw ur post on skinny disease, signed up to the forum and then couldnt get back so i found u again here.

I have 2 golden Dojo Loachs, they live with my goldfish, i have had them for about a year now, and they are just awesome.

Unfortunatly one of them became sick just last week, so i put him in a quarentine tank.

He was VERY skinny, i mean really skinny, and he had this long indent running along the underside of his stomach. So i serperated him and gave him, some novqua anti-biotic/slime coat helper. Plus a little bit of Aquarium salt, i then proceeded to start feeding him 2-3 times a day, small things nothing major.

His thickness started improving, but then i noticed he had this wierd white (pretty large but definatly NOT ick) spot on his side, today when i looked at him, his thickness is very good, the indent in his stomach was almost gone, but that white spot was gone, and replaced by a hole the same diameter as the white spot. I can see his skeleton, he is now swimming very wierd, his balance is all off and he has stopped eating, i think.

i stopped adding aquarium salt before the weekend, and ive been doing regular 2 gallon water changes every other day. he was imprving and now it seems like he is gonna die.

If you have any ideas what could be wrong with him please help!

tmcmullen
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Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:28 pm

Post by tmcmullen » Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:09 pm

Baileofsolamnia:
I am sorry, but I am not qualified to give you advice on your sick dojo. I think you should post a separate question under the health section of this forum. Maybe someone will see your post and be able to help.

Look up hole-in-head and see if that is what you are seeing on your dojo.

Good luck!

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