Recommendations/discussion regarding my loach

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surgeon
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:29 am

Recommendations/discussion regarding my loach

Post by surgeon » Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:39 am

I'm new to fish forums so I'll just try and give as many details as I can.... Sorry for the wall of text.

Tank-
Tall 4ft tank - 270ish litres (perhaps 250 once you take out gravel/rocks/plants). Its a ~78 gallon tank at 100% water full.
Filter -
Jebo 835 (1100Litres per hour though a lot lower than that with age of a few years) PLUS internal Fluval3plus (I dont like it, used to have a small Rena filstar that was smaller and sucked out more 'gunk')
Heater -
boring heater. hasn't turned on all summer! Plenty big enough for tank.
Stock -
1 8inch clown loach, 3 gourami (normal sized), one pretty fish I have no idea what its called and 3 tiny grey fish. Oh and a catfish you never see (but hes there! decent sized bristle nose). I'm under the 1 inch per gallon rule by a lot i think.
Plants/substrate
Just normal gravel you buy from fish stores everywhere(rounded, not sharp). Low light/weed like plants like the tank. No green algae blooms, just that nasty bearded black algae which I keep controlled with elbow grease.


Firstly ive had my Clown Loach 'Big Fish' for 8 years+, currently around 8 inches long. He was almost invincible, outliving every fish we got with our initial fish tank. Unfortunately his initial loachy friends all died off and hes too big to get new friends for, outcompeting them for food or generally outliving them when the water quality drops (or i just cant get the knack of getting those small fish shop loaches to live). I know a single clown loach is bad but he does seem quite OK after living years of the hermit lifestyle, good clolour, going nutty/clicky when food is dropped into the tank (trying to eat my fingers, gross).

I usually feed with community fish meaty bricks (1 cube a day) + frozen bloodworms and add some other flakes/crumbs for the 3 gouramis. Before he got Hole In The Head i had been feeding with chiclid based meaty bricks due to the shop running out of the usual stuff, other than that I cant think of a change that could have caused the disease.

Yep hes got Hole In the Head :( I've tried the following:
- Treating for hexamita with Flagyl soaked food (restricted drug in Australia, very difficult to get from vet, vet will not give much and I live in a small town so theres no fish vets)
- Garlic/broccoli (didnt eat it)
- Multivitamin add to his meatybricks. Now back to his normal diet of 'community' bricks plus bloodworms
- prazi treatment for whole tank just to be sure
-lots of water changes

No indicators or parisites/hexamita on fish or their poop although one gourami got skinny. Clown loach is a good size.

I've always had trouble keeping nitrates down without water changes far in excess of recommendations on the web (20-25% a week instead of fortnight)'. Its possible nitrates got too high. Can’t figure out why so I've just tried to live with lots of changes by watering my pot plants/lawn a lot. My biofilter seems excellent with ammonia/nitrite always at zero. I use an in tank filter+external canister filter.

So Big Fish seems to be in a holding pattern. He doesn't appear to be getting worse but doesn’t appear to be getting better(and it looks bad, with one rather large hole in the head plus auxiliary ‘pimple craters’). He is eating but not with the customary gluttony, sometimes not at all. I'm relatively confident that the cause is gone or that its a parasite/disease I just can’t treat and will kill everything in the tank.

Last fact, experienced some ick/fish death after buying some fish from a new fish store (lesson learnt). That was at least 4 months ago.

So thats my story. I’d love to keep clown loaches as part of my tank if I can. so should I....
- wait and see
- buy some friends for big fish
- give up and have a 3 gourami tank! (which will still have high nitrates i swear! arrgh)
-something else

Photos
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52855305@N02/
Last edited by surgeon on Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

starsplitter7
Posts: 5054
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:04 pm
Location: Tampa, Florida

Re: Recommendations/discussion regarding my loach

Post by starsplitter7 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:09 am

Hello there,

A couple questions.

1.) Are you in Australia? You didn't quite say. There are members on this forum who are from Australia and they may be able to help recommend medications.

2.) Which of your fish has Hole in the Head? I can't tell if it is the clown or the Gourami.

3.) Do you have a quarantine tank? If you don't, get a small one for treatments, and so new fish can be quarantined for a month before they go in the new tank. It is much easier to treat a stressed fish in a quarantine tank and a lot cheaper.

4.) Yes, get new loaches for your clown. In a quarantine tank, they will do better. Keep the water really clean, well oxygenated and if they are thin, treat for parasites. If you can find and buy clightly larger clowns they will adjust better. I have been luck with the 3" mark. But a friend just gave me 6 1.5-2" and after 6 weeks they are going strong in a quarantine tank.

5.) Do you vacuum the gravel and under decorations when you do water changes?

Please post a picture of your tank and the fish. Post pictures of the fish you don't know. Someone on here can probably tell you what they are.

Your clown would probably like some cucumber and zucchine, and so would your Bristlenose. Do you give the bristlenose a diet of algae wafers and fresh vegetables. They need the be fed for their health.

Because I do frequent water changes, it doesn't hurt my fish to do 25% or more water in the change. I change 50% on my small tanks. (Think of old water as the water in your toilet that isn't flushed.)

Don't worry about the inch of fish per gallon rule. It is a myth. It is also the type of fish, what it eats, how hefty the fish is, how active the fish is, how many need to live together. . .

When it is summer, and my tanks stay warm, I remove the heaters, so there's no chance of a tank overheating.

Find out why you have high nitrates: a rotting plant or fish, not enough vacuuming, . . . .

surgeon
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:29 am

Re: Recommendations/discussion regarding my loach

Post by surgeon » Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:43 pm

1) yes. Aus
2) Clown. Apologies for terrible writing.
3) I do have a quarantine tank, its quite small and it really should be called the coffin as any fish I ever place in there gets listless and dies (possibly because of tank size ro they are too far gone before they get in there). I think a couple have survived very short stays.
4) Theres a special on 2.5/3 inch loaches at a local pet store near me. Its not my normal store but its a significant saving and the fish do look healthy.
5) I Vacuum. Not under decorations though as it disturbs the plants.

Catfish didnt each broccoli (nobody did, can't blame them). I'll try the cucumber.

I'll post a pic when I can . The unidentified fish are all quite small though.

starsplitter7
Posts: 5054
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:04 pm
Location: Tampa, Florida

Re: Recommendations/discussion regarding my loach

Post by starsplitter7 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:56 pm

I actually remove all my decorations once or twice a year and do a serious vacuuming. The gunge below is astonding. You don't sound crowded to me, so I can't believe your nitrates stay so bad.

Hopefully someone will come along who can help you with the info on how to treat your fish. If you had a good Q tank, I would snap up those baby fish, but if your big loach is ill, you don't want to kill everyone. See if the store will hold the fish for you until you get your loach treated properly.

I imagine the fish are so ill when you put them in the little tank, they expire. If you use it as a cycled tank, everything will work out okay.

Try cucmber and zucchini, par boiled. My catfish devour it. My loaches like it too.

A picture of your clown will help diagnose what is wrong with it, and do the best you can with the little fish. I just take lots of pictures until something turns out decent. Sometime, if it relatively common, people can guess froma slightly blurry picture. But of course, the clearer the better.

I know someone will come along with more info for you. :)

surgeon
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:29 am

Re: Recommendations/discussion regarding my loach

Post by surgeon » Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:28 pm

Oh I know the clown loach disease is Hole In the Head. Unfortunately its treatment isn't highly researched :( I assume poor conditions/diet were the cause so rectifying that has been my priority. It could be parisites but if ti is they are quite invisible.

I've been using mylafix (spelling?) to help stop secondary infections on the holes in the head (what a graphic disease!). The holes are just holes in the flesh (quite deep in one part unfortuantely), it looks all pink and healthy in there with no indication of fungus/bacteria/parisites. The 'pimples' and pimple craters (mainly craters) are generally around the head area with very little extenstion down the lateral line, they arent so bad, its just the one main hole thats the most worrying bit.

Big loach is too large for my quarantine tank. I should not have gotten rid of the old 4ft tank I had but it was tanking up a lot of garage room.

At work. 6 hrs till I get some pics!

surgeon
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:29 am

Re: Recommendations/discussion regarding my loach

Post by surgeon » Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:26 pm

starsplitter7 wrote: You don't sound crowded to me, so I can't believe your nitrates stay so bad.
Me neither. I'm going to add some robustness to my regieme, set day each week instead of 'on the weekend' that might get missed if i go away. A marker line down at the 33% line that I must reach before stopping.

I dont get much crud under decorations when i lift them up. There are a couple of dead spots in the tank where stuff settles, recently rearranged things to look much better but the negative result is a crud collection spot near a bit of driftwood.

surgeon
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:29 am

Re: Recommendations/discussion regarding my loach

Post by surgeon » Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:01 am

Photos
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52855305@N02/

sorry i can't figure out how to link them directly in.

starsplitter7
Posts: 5054
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:04 pm
Location: Tampa, Florida

Re: Recommendations/discussion regarding my loach

Post by starsplitter7 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:15 pm

I am not good at fish IDs, but I believe that the little fish is a cichlid. At first I thought a ram, but I don't keep cichlids, so I don't know. Maybe a jewel or a krib. http://www.thekrib.com/Apisto/

I feel very bad looking at your Clown, because I think one of my clowns had the same thing. I thought he was in a fight with another clown. I put him in a Q tank and treated him with clean water and lots of water changes.

Your tank looks so nice and clean. I am sorry you are having such troubles.

Wait til someone comes along who knows a bit more. :)

surgeon
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:29 am

Re: Recommendations/discussion regarding my loach

Post by surgeon » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:30 pm

Nobody liked the cucumber. Put it in last night and its still 100% intact. Luckily I only put in half a slice (broken into 3 bits).

If that small colourful fish of mine is a cichlid its awfully peaceful. Just floats around doing its own thing. Seems to survive on on what the other fish eat.

Ordered a rena XP3 last night to either replace the old jebo that is slowing down or compliment it (ie get rid of the internal filter and just have 2 external canisters running). Im thinking with enough tubing I could get a river flow happening instead of circular.

starsplitter7
Posts: 5054
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:04 pm
Location: Tampa, Florida

Re: Recommendations/discussion regarding my loach

Post by starsplitter7 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:10 pm

I know that some Kribs and rams can be quite peaceful, but I am no expert.

Sometimes it takes a while for the fish to recognize new food. Did you par boil it? I would put algae wafers or shrimp pelets on it, so they try t by accident.

I add as many filters as I can attach to my tanks t keep the water as clean as possible.

surgeon
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:29 am

Re: Recommendations/discussion regarding my loach

Post by surgeon » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:48 pm

update - Well he's not getting any worse and may actually be healing a bit. Also eating. Still has massive open wounds IN HIS HEAD so secondary infection is a huge risk still but things are looking better than they were.

Diana
Posts: 4675
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:35 am
Location: Near San Franciso

Re: Recommendations/discussion regarding my loach

Post by Diana » Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:24 pm

For lack of anything else, I would bump up your water changes to as big as you can do as often as you can. 50% twice a week is not bad. Get the nitrates DOWN.
"Recommendations" of fewer, smaller water changes are silly. "Recommendations" of water changes based on a certain amount every so often are silly.
Here is a good rule:
Do enough water changes as often as needed to keep the NO3 well under 20 ppm if at all possible, and under 10 ppm when the fish are stressed (such as by disease). Large water changes are not a problem for the fish as long as the new water is as similar as possible to the old water. Match GH, KH and TDS. And temperature, of course.

1" per gallon rule works ONLY for small fish. See below.

If he will eat the vitamin enriched food keep it up. Liquid vitamins sold for caged birds will work. If you can also soak the food with garlic this may help.

Keep trying to expand the diet with all possible vegetables, but if no one will eat them, give up. Just about any vegetable that we eat is OK. Try pumpkin, yam, sweet potato, squash... baked until tender. Boiling is OK, but makes them mushy and they fall apart sooner in the tank.

How 1" per gallon really works
Fish produce waste and require oxygen based on their mass, not length.
A fish that is twice as long as another fish is also twice as wide and twice as tall, or 2 x 2 x 2 = 8 times the mass of the smaller fish.
That larger fish also has 2 x 2 x 2 = 8 times the oxygen needs, and produces 8 times the waste (ammonia, CO2).
So... comparing an 8" Clown Loach to a 2" fish means not 4 times the waste, but 4 x 4 x 4 = 64 times the waste.
There is NO WAY to make fish over 2" long fit into the "1" per gallon" guideline. That guide is simply not relevant to larger fish.

Here is a better guide:
If your regular schedule of water changes can keep the nitrates under 20 ppm then the tank is not overstocked.
If you are having to struggle to keep the NO3 low, then the tank is overstocked, no matter how few fish are in it.
Note that these are not social or physical guides to how much space a fish needs for activity levels, or how many fish of one species ought to be in the tank. This is JUST a guideline to keeping the O2 up and the waste level down.
1" of fish per gallon of water is a rough guide that may help stock a tank with fish under 2".

Can you move any of the smaller fish to a smaller tank? Keep as few fish as possible in the large tank?

I agree with you about the good and bad of certain filters. If a filter is not doing the job then quit wasting the electricity to run it, get a better filter.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

surgeon
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:29 am

Re: Recommendations/discussion regarding my loach

Post by surgeon » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:48 pm

Thanks for the tips regarding the 1" rule. Maybe my tank is overstocked :) However I have an Eheim 2075 on the way and I'm trying to change my water change ritual (more science, less voodoo) so we'll see how that goes. Might even see hwo Purigen works in the new pump but whoa that stuff is expensive in Australia (like most things).

Also picked up a new double tube lamp for the tank. More plant growth might help with the nitrates and at the very least make the fish happier.

Oh and the Clown Loach is getting better. Still looks horrible but I can see healing happening.

starsplitter7
Posts: 5054
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:04 pm
Location: Tampa, Florida

Re: Recommendations/discussion regarding my loach

Post by starsplitter7 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:26 pm

I am so happy to hear your clown is healing.

(Always listen to Diana, she is amazing! :)

longtian006
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:51 pm

Re: Recommendations/discussion regarding my loach

Post by longtian006 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:41 am

I just hope it helps. Hopefully another member will come along who has more experience than I do. Generally I keep injured fish really clean and low stress. I have Sids too. I know how quick and clever they can be. :) Chinese algae eaters are also very fast.


























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