Want advice on buying second hand tank + filter.

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erilo2000
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:23 pm
Location: Montreal

Want advice on buying second hand tank + filter.

Post by erilo2000 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:38 pm

This is related to my previous post; http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=23288

I am tempted to buy another tank to replace my current one.
At the moment I have a 37 gallon tank with a surface dimension of 18 inch by 20 inch.
I have a feeling that this might not be big enough to keep five zebra loaches.

So I am thinking about buying a 120 gallon tank or bigger second hand.

My questions is; What should I do when I buy a second hand tank?
Do I need to clean and/or treat it with something?
Can I use water from other aquarium to speed up the cycle progress?
It comes with an used filter that I want to use. Is there something I should do with that?

And my last question; Is a 120 gallon tank that is 15 inches deep a suitable tank for Clown loaches?
~I love loaches. I love every kind of loach. I just want to hug all! But I can't hug every loach!~
I'm sorry I'm thinking about loaches again. ;-;

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DainBramage1991
Posts: 274
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:56 pm
Location: Northern New England

Re: Want advice on buying second hand tank + filter.

Post by DainBramage1991 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:57 pm

Having had a number of second hand tanks over the years, I figure I might be able to help here.

What I did with mine was to thoroughly clean them top to bottom, inside and out, making sure to completely remove any and all residue left over from the previous owners. There used to be, and may still be, a product available made specifically for cleaning aquariums (it's been a number of years since I've done this), much like a fish-safe glass cleaner. The one I used was safe to use on an empty tank, but it still needed to be thoroughly rinsed out afterward. I don't remember what it was called, sorry.

Next, I would go over all of the seams with a generous helping of aquarium-safe silicone cement, particularly on larger tanks that are subject to more mechanical stress while being moved. Leave it to cure for at least 24 hours, or longer according to the directions on the tube of cement. It's better to spend a bit now on silicone, than to have to clean 120 gallons of water up from your carpets.

As for the filter, make sure that you clean it out thoroughly as well, being careful to clean out any small areas where biological materials may collect. Replace all filter media.

Using water from the other tank won't help establish your biological filtration, as the bacteria count in the water itself is actually quite low. Your best bet is to toss in (gently) a double handful of gravel from your established tank instead. If you're looking for a product to help establish the proper bacterial colonies, Bio-Zyme is about the best there is.

Lastly, fill the tank and let it run for at least 48 hours before you put fish into it (assuming you're not doing fishless cycling).

UVvis
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:51 pm
Location: Central Florida

Re: Want advice on buying second hand tank + filter.

Post by UVvis » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:05 am

If you are worried about any biological contamination (tank, filter, whatever)...

Bleach
Drain
New water, then de-chlorination (sodium thiosulfate).

Redoing a seal on a big tank isn't a bad idea. I have a 150gal I need to reseal. If the seal is in good shape, don't worry about it. The water helps push the seal against the glass anyway.

If the tank was salt water, or used in an area with hard water, I like using organic acid cleaners, like lactic acid. You can get this at pool supply shops. The CLR cleaner is pretty good too, but has a mild surfactant in it. I'm a big fan of just draining everything, refilling, and repeating a couple times to clean stuff off well.

If you want to speed the process, once you clean out a used filter, just put it on a system with fish. Bacteria grow exponentionally, so once the filter is seeded, it can more rapidly respond to changes in loading and demand.

erilo2000
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:23 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: Want advice on buying second hand tank + filter.

Post by erilo2000 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:08 am

Hi DainBramage1991 and UVvis,

Thanks for the advice!
Today I bought a 70 gallon tank.
I wanted to get a 120 gallon tank but I couldn't find a good one second hand or it was to expensive.
And I was worried that it might be to heavy for the wooden floors in my apartment.

Next year I'm going to buy a condo / house. So it will be a more permanent location and then I will buy a very large tank.

The seams on this tank look in very good condition. It's not pealing or anything and looks very clean. I will take another look tomorrow morning to be sure.

UVvis,
You recommended to connect the new filter to my already established tank with fish. I assume that I have to keep my current filter running on it as well. So basically have 2 filters on my tank?
~I love loaches. I love every kind of loach. I just want to hug all! But I can't hug every loach!~
I'm sorry I'm thinking about loaches again. ;-;

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DainBramage1991
Posts: 274
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:56 pm
Location: Northern New England

Re: Want advice on buying second hand tank + filter.

Post by DainBramage1991 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:23 pm

Here is some info that might be useful to you:

My house was built according to US code in the mid 1980's, and the floors are rated for 500 lbs per sq. foot (that works out to roughly 2441 kg per square meter, if my metric conversions are correct). I'm sure Canada's codes are probably similar, and I suspect that most floor systems in good condition can be counted on to support a load of that amount.

Since a 70 gallon tank weighs approximately 800 lbs (362 kg) and occupies just over 4 square feet of floor space, floor loading shouldn't be an issue. Total weight can still be a factor, of course, so I agree with your choice to stick with the 70 gallon tank until you have your own place and you have full knowledge of the structure.

Another thing to consider about tank weight is point loading. Most metal tank stands have small "feet" that don't distribute the load at all. If your stand is of this type, I suggest placing a piece of thick (3/4" or more), high-quality plywood (not OSB, also called chipboard) under the stand so that all four feet rest on it instead of directly on your floor. This will spread out the load and prevent damage and possible tipping (a rather catastrophic event for your fish).
Wooden stands usually don't have this issue, most of them are built in such a way that the load is evenly distributed across the base.

I hesitate to answer for UVvis, but I think that the point was to establish a biological presence in the new filter by seeding it in the established tank for a short time. This can be done without removing the old filter (for convenience), and a little extra filtration never hurts the fish.

Diana
Posts: 4675
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:35 am
Location: Near San Franciso

Re: Want advice on buying second hand tank + filter.

Post by Diana » Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:56 pm

When I get a used tank I use salt as an abrasive to clean it. Does not scratch glass. (Do not use it on acrylic) I start with warm water that has lots of salt dissolved in it, and put dry salt on the glass. Then wipe it around with a cloth that has been dampened in the salt water. The salt is so concentrated that most average fresh water disease or parasites do not live.
Then thorough rinsing.
If there are mineral deposits then an acidic cleaner is best. I use citric acid, available in the grocery stores as 'sour salt'.

Then I follow the cleaning with the fishless cycle. This takes about 3 weeks. 3 weeks with no host is another way to kill most disease or parasites.
It is also the very best way to get a very large colony of nitrifying bacteria established.

This will not kill Mycobacteriosis. To kill MB: thoroughly wash the tank with chlorine bleach, rinse very well, then slosh around some rubbing alcohol (min 70%). Make sure it gets into all the corners. Clean the filter the same way. Throw away the filter media, the substrate and anything else that you cannot clean really well. Wipe out most of the alcohol and allow the rest to evaporate.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fishless Cycle
You too can boast that "No fish were harmed in the cycling of your new tank"
Cycling a tank means to grow the beneficial bacteria that will help to decompose the fish waste (especially ammonia). These bacteria need ammonia to grow. There are 3 sources of ammonia that work to do this. One is fish. Unfortunately, the process exposes the fish to ammonia, which burns their gills, and nitrite, which makes their blood unable to carry oxygen. This often kills the fish.

Another source is decomposing protein. You could cycle your tank by adding fish food or a dead fish or shellfish. You do not know how much beneficial bacteria you are growing, though.

The best source of ammonia is... Ammonia. In a bottle.

Using fish is a delicate balance of water changes to keep the toxins low (try not to hurt the fish) but keep feeding the bacteria. It can take 4 to 8 weeks to cycle a tank this way, and can cost the lives of several fish. When you are done you have grown a small bacteria population that still needs to be nurtured to increase its population. You cannot, at the end of a fish-in cycle, fully stock your tank.

The fishless/ammonia cycle takes as little as 3 weeks, and can be even faster, grows a BIG bacteria population, and does not harm fish in any way.

Both methods give you plenty of practice using your test kit.

How to cycle a tank the fishless way:

1) Make sure all equipment is working, fill with water that has all the stuff you will need for the fish you intend to keep. Dechlorinator, minerals for GH or KH adjustments, the proper salt mix, if you are creating a brackish or marine tank. These bacteria require a few minerals, so make sure the GH and KH is at least 3 German degrees of hardness. They grow best when the pH is in the 7s. Good water movement, fairly warm (mid to upper 70sF), no antibiotics or other toxins.

2) (Optional)Add some source of the bacteria. Used filter media from a cycled tank is best, gravel or some decorations or a few plants... even some water, though this is the poorest source of the beneficial bacteria.
Bacteria in a bottle can be a source of these bacteria, but make sure you are getting Nitrospiros spp of bacteria. All other ‘bacteria in a bottle’ products have the wrong bacteria. (This step is optional. The proper bacteria will find the tank even if you make no effort to add them). Live plants may bring in these bacteria on their leaves and stems.

3) Add ammonia until the test reads 5 ppm. This is the non-sudsing, no surfactants, no-fragrance-added ammonia that is often found in a hardware store, discount stores, and sometimes in a grocery store. The concentration of ammonia may not be the same in all bottles. Try adding 5 drops per 10 gallons, then allowing the filter to circulate for about an hour, then test. If the reading isn't up to 5 ppm, add a few more drops and test again. (Example, if your test reads only 2 ppm, then add another 5 drops) Some ammonia is such a weak dilution you may need to add several ounces to get a reading.

4) Test for ammonia daily, and add enough to keep the reading at 5 ppm. You probably will not have to add much, if any, in the first few days, unless you added a good amount of bacteria to jump start the cycle.

5) Several days after you start, begin testing for nitrites. When the nitrites show up, reduce the amount of ammonia you add so the test shows 3ppm. (Add only half as much ammonia as you were adding in part 4) Add this reduced amount daily from now until the tank is cycled.
If the nitrites get too high (over 5 ppm), do a water change. The bacteria growth is slowed because of the high nitrites. Reducing the level of ammonia to 3 ppm should prevent the nitrite from getting over 5 ppm.

6) Continue testing, and adding ammonia daily. The nitrates will likely show up about 2 weeks after you started. Keep monitoring, and watch for 0 ppm ammonia, 0 ppm nitrite and rising nitrates.

7) Once the 0 ppm ammonia and nitrites shows up it may bounce around a little bit for a day or two. Be patient. Keep adding the ammonia; keep testing ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.
When it seems done you can challenge the system by adding more than a regular dose of ammonia, and the bacteria should be able to remove the ammonia and nitrite by the next day.
If you will not be adding fish right away continue to add the ammonia to keep the bacteria fed.

8) When you are ready to add the fish, do at least one water change, and it may take a couple of them, to reduce the nitrate to safe levels (as low as possible, certainly below 10 ppm) I have seen nitrate approaching 200 ppm by the end of this fishless cycle in a non-planted tank.

9) You can plant a tank that is being cycled this way at any point during the process. If you plant early, the plants will be well rooted, and better able to handle the disruption of the water change.
Yes, the plants will use some of the ammonia and the nitrates. They are part of the nitrogen handling system, part of the biofilter, they are working for you. Some plants do not like high ammonia, though. If a certain plant dies, remove it, and only replace it after the cycle is done.

10) The fishless cycle can also be used when you are still working out the details of lighting, plants and other things. If you change the filter, make sure you keep the old media for several weeks or a month. Most of the bacteria have been growing in this media (sponges, floss etc).
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

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