Sudden loss of fish including loaches 6ft tank

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birddancer
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Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:30 pm

Re: Sudden loss of fish including loaches 6ft tank

Post by birddancer » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:31 am

Is there a sub for Dechlor? I haven't seen that in Australia before. At least not at my two LFS.

birddancer
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Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:30 pm

Re: Sudden loss of fish including loaches 6ft tank

Post by birddancer » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:37 am

Sorry Diana,

Can I also ask that in your post it says to use salt when nitrites are present? Should I do this? Many people I speak to say its unnecessary if not actually harmful to fish.

Diana
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Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:35 am
Location: Near San Franciso

Re: Sudden loss of fish including loaches 6ft tank

Post by Diana » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:31 pm

Yes, the ammonia is coming from the living fish. It is lingering, not being removed by the bacteria because the bacteria are not doing very well.

I would be following the instructions to very slowly alter the conditions. As long as the pH stays low the ammonia is in the non toxic form (ammonium) but the bacteria you need to get rid of the ammonia do not grow very well.
When you increase the carbonates to help out the bacteria the pH rises, and the ammonium starts changing into ammonia.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

birddancer
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:30 pm

Re: Sudden loss of fish including loaches 6ft tank

Post by birddancer » Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:16 pm

Diana wrote:Yes, the ammonia is coming from the living fish. It is lingering, not being removed by the bacteria because the bacteria are not doing very well.

I would be following the instructions to very slowly alter the conditions. As long as the pH stays low the ammonia is in the non toxic form (ammonium) but the bacteria you need to get rid of the ammonia do not grow very well.
When you increase the carbonates to help out the bacteria the pH rises, and the ammonium starts changing into ammonia.
Thanks Diana,

I certainly am following carefully.

I think that Nitrite was a false positive, I may have left it more than 5 mins before reading.

Ive tested 5 times since to 0.00ppm level Nitrite.

This morning I got;

AMM1.0
NITRATES 40

I have added two new airstones on max power and heaps of plants to add more oxygen to the tank, as well as the tiniest amount of tetramin granules which was devoured in less than 30 seconds. They havent had food for 3 days poor things :(




Just a question though I picked up a GH and KH liquid kit but I cannot for the life of me see any change from 1 drop to 12?

Also I couldn't find a seachem Amm test at my LFS, but I will try online.

Diana
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Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:35 am
Location: Near San Franciso

Re: Sudden loss of fish including loaches 6ft tank

Post by Diana » Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:00 am

Dechlor is an abbreviation for dechlorinator. Any product that locks up chlorine or chloramine. Prime is a good one, and it sounds like you have that. Keep on using it.

Salt: Only if there is nitrite. (Dose is 1 tsp per 20 gallons) For more info about the use of salt during nitrite problems google Brown Blood Disease or Methemoglobinemia.

Ammonia rising: The first population of bacteria are not recovered enough to handle the ammonia. As long as the pH is low the ammonia is in the form of ammonium, which is not toxic.

Nitrite at zero: There are 2 reasons for this. One is that the bacteria that remove it are doing well enough to handle whatever nitrite is created by the ammonia removing bacteria. The other is that the ammonia removing bacteria are not doing too well, and are not producing very much nitrite. Both conditions are possible.

Nitrate rising: Yippie!!! The second group of bacteria are recovering. Enough ammonia is getting turned into nitrite (so the first group is not totally dead) and the second group has enough live bacteria to handle the amount of nitrite they are producing.

pH low: (is it still low?) Keeps the ammonia in the form of ammonium, but slows the growth of the bacteria.

GH and KH tests by API:
GH: The GH test is very subject to aging. If it is old there will be no color change. Try this: Use only half the water (2.5ml) then count each drop as 2 German degrees of hardness. Do the test is very good light. I stand near a window, and hold the tube against a white background. The color change may not look like anything, the first few drops make it sort of pale yellow, then the turning point is sort of 'not really the same yellow any more' rather than really GREEN!!! It just does not jump out at you like that. The drop after that ought to be a more distinct green.
I tested a friend's well and the test was over 20 degrees of hardness. I gave up adding drops at 20, so yes, there is water that hard. Are you in an area that is relatively dry? Can you get a report of water quality from the water company? GH might be reported as total hardness or permanent hardness.
KH: This test works pretty well, and ought not to give problems. Certainly and old kit might no longer respond, but mine are all old, and the KH test does still work. Like the GH test, try half the water and then each drop equals 2 German degrees of hardness. The test tube will be getting distinctly blue, but each drop might show a swirl of yellow until you mix it. Then the whole test tube will turn yellow when you have added enough drops. Sometimes the color change shows up over a couple of drops, one being just sort of 'not quite pure blue' and the next being almost any shade of yellow from pale to darker to almost golden. That well that I tested also had very high KH. (I gave up after adding 20 drops)

The problem with high KH in this situation is that carbonates are the main buffer of the pH in the tank. While it is not impossible for the pH to be controlled by something else, I would be really surprised if the KH were so incredibly high, yet the pH is bottom of the charts low.

Here is a way to confirm that your tests (both GH and KH) are working right:
Go buy some reverse osmosis or distilled water. A gallon is plenty for all these tests.
Test this, and varying amounts of this water combined with tap water and with tank water. Yes, that is a lot of tests, but they can tell us more about what we are dealing with if testing the tap and the tank are returning odd results.
Report results.
Pure RO: GH and KH should take only 1 drop to change color, and the change will be very obvious. RO will have only the tiniest trace of anything in it, so the tests are telling you zero degrees GH and KH.
Pure tap water:____________
Tank water:__________
Blends:
50/50 RO + tap:___________
50/50 RO + tank:____________
If those do not return any useful results (still adding lots of drops and no change) try less tap or tank water:
25% tap + 75% RO:___________
25% tank + 75% RO:___________

Continue with the water change schedule, and the more water changes you are doing the more like the tap water the tank will be. GH and KH will show this.

Good to add the plants and the bubblers, the plants should also be removing the ammonia. Keep plenty of light on the plants.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

birddancer
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:30 pm

Re: Sudden loss of fish including loaches 6ft tank

Post by birddancer » Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:50 am

Diana wrote:Dechlor is an abbreviation for dechlorinator. Any product that locks up chlorine or chloramine. Prime is a good one, and it sounds like you have that. Keep on using it.

Salt: Only if there is nitrite. (Dose is 1 tsp per 20 gallons) For more info about the use of salt during nitrite problems google Brown Blood Disease or Methemoglobinemia.

Ammonia rising: The first population of bacteria are not recovered enough to handle the ammonia. As long as the pH is low the ammonia is in the form of ammonium, which is not toxic.

Nitrite at zero: There are 2 reasons for this. One is that the bacteria that remove it are doing well enough to handle whatever nitrite is created by the ammonia removing bacteria. The other is that the ammonia removing bacteria are not doing too well, and are not producing very much nitrite. Both conditions are possible.

Nitrate rising: Yippie!!! The second group of bacteria are recovering. Enough ammonia is getting turned into nitrite (so the first group is not totally dead) and the second group has enough live bacteria to handle the amount of nitrite they are producing.

pH low: (is it still low?) Keeps the ammonia in the form of ammonium, but slows the growth of the bacteria.

GH and KH tests by API:
GH: The GH test is very subject to aging. If it is old there will be no color change. Try this: Use only half the water (2.5ml) then count each drop as 2 German degrees of hardness. Do the test is very good light. I stand near a window, and hold the tube against a white background. The color change may not look like anything, the first few drops make it sort of pale yellow, then the turning point is sort of 'not really the same yellow any more' rather than really GREEN!!! It just does not jump out at you like that. The drop after that ought to be a more distinct green.
I tested a friend's well and the test was over 20 degrees of hardness. I gave up adding drops at 20, so yes, there is water that hard. Are you in an area that is relatively dry? Can you get a report of water quality from the water company? GH might be reported as total hardness or permanent hardness.
KH: This test works pretty well, and ought not to give problems. Certainly and old kit might no longer respond, but mine are all old, and the KH test does still work. Like the GH test, try half the water and then each drop equals 2 German degrees of hardness. The test tube will be getting distinctly blue, but each drop might show a swirl of yellow until you mix it. Then the whole test tube will turn yellow when you have added enough drops. Sometimes the color change shows up over a couple of drops, one being just sort of 'not quite pure blue' and the next being almost any shade of yellow from pale to darker to almost golden. That well that I tested also had very high KH. (I gave up after adding 20 drops)

The problem with high KH in this situation is that carbonates are the main buffer of the pH in the tank. While it is not impossible for the pH to be controlled by something else, I would be really surprised if the KH were so incredibly high, yet the pH is bottom of the charts low.

Here is a way to confirm that your tests (both GH and KH) are working right:
Go buy some reverse osmosis or distilled water. A gallon is plenty for all these tests.
Test this, and varying amounts of this water combined with tap water and with tank water. Yes, that is a lot of tests, but they can tell us more about what we are dealing with if testing the tap and the tank are returning odd results.
Report results.
Pure RO: GH and KH should take only 1 drop to change color, and the change will be very obvious. RO will have only the tiniest trace of anything in it, so the tests are telling you zero degrees GH and KH.
Pure tap water:____________
Tank water:__________
Blends:
50/50 RO + tap:___________
50/50 RO + tank:____________
If those do not return any useful results (still adding lots of drops and no change) try less tap or tank water:
25% tap + 75% RO:___________
25% tank + 75% RO:___________

Continue with the water change schedule, and the more water changes you are doing the more like the tap water the tank will be. GH and KH will show this.

Good to add the plants and the bubblers, the plants should also be removing the ammonia. Keep plenty of light on the plants.

Thanks for the imput Diana!

I am still using plenty of the prime, at the moment that is all I am putting in the tank and in the new water during water changes, so that's good to know.

At the moment I am doing 15% changes every second day, with feeding every 3 days. Ive also changed their diet from brine shirmp and bloodworm, to tetra min granules and some fresh fruit and veg Zucchini, Squash and watermelon for the bottom feeders.

My most recent results are;

PH - 6.0
Nitrite - 0.0
Nitrate - 40
AMM - 1.0

As per your 4 week plan listed above I vacuumed 1/4 of the tank under all the big items in that corner of the tank. No dead bodies but plenty of poo found under my cave ornament.

Also as per your plan I cleaned one filter, my fluval internal which was absolutely putrid despite only being cleaned about 8 weeks ago. I was really careful not to scrub at it though and of course used tank water just to squeeze out the sponges and rinse the components etc.

Considering that filter was so dirty, do you think it would be ok to do the canister straight away? Or would that shock the tank too much? It's probably been 3 months since that was done so its going to be so much worse.

birddancer
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Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:30 pm

Re: Sudden loss of fish including loaches 6ft tank

Post by birddancer » Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:56 am

Has anyone had any experiences with Ammo Zorb sachets or Seachem Matrix added to canister filters to help get Ammo down ?

starsplitter7
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Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:04 pm
Location: Tampa, Florida

Re: Sudden loss of fish including loaches 6ft tank

Post by starsplitter7 » Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:28 am

I do not have any expereience with the products you mentioned. Sorry.

I didn't read all the posts carefully, so forgive me if I repeat stuff you already know.

If you let water set 24 hours you don't need dechlorinator. I alsways use it anyways, and Prime is my favorite.

Prime can give you a false positive for Ammonia.

Increase oxygen when you use a dechlorinator.

I usually try to have more than one filter on each tank. I clean the material on one filter and then two weeks later, clean the other. I rinse them in tank water I have removed from the water changes.

I always vacuum under decorations and every 6 months or so, I take all decorations out of the tank and do a good clean under the decorations.

Sounds like things are getting better.

birddancer
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:30 pm

Re: Sudden loss of fish including loaches 6ft tank

Post by birddancer » Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:47 pm

Thanks Starsplitter, to answer your questions;

I've been doubling my dose of dechlor to 5 mls per 20L of new water added.

I also increased my plants by about 70% and dropped two new airstones in (already had 1 tank long bubble wall and an existing airstone), which has made a big difference to overall water movement in the tank. The fish actually look really happy! Strangely enough!

I have 3 filters, 2 internal (a fluval and eheim) and a 1050 Aquis canister filter.

I did a 70% water change last night after getting 2.0 ammonia reading.

This morning it's down to .50 so I intend on doing another 50% change tonight.

With 200Gallons to fix I think unfortunately I have gone throught enough water in the last 4 days to water several third world countries for life :(

I did also rinse out my canister filter last night.

This morning I had to do a small feed (their first since friday), which was three pinches of tetra min granules for the top guys and tetras and 3 peices of Zucchini and 3 peices of watermelon for my corys, pleco and loaches.

I still have 6.0 PH (despite my tap water being 6.4) and my nitrites are still 0.

birddancer
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Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:30 pm

Re: Sudden loss of fish including loaches 6ft tank

Post by birddancer » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:50 am

Hi Guys,

Finally got a solid reading for GH and KH (albeit just after a 50% water change.

GH - 5
KH - 1

birddancer
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:30 pm

Re: Sudden loss of fish including loaches 6ft tank

Post by birddancer » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:05 pm

Did a 50% last night now this morning it tested;

KH 1
GH 5
PH 6.0
AMM .25
NITRATE 40
NITRITE 0.0

Going to do another 25% tonight. Am I doing the right thing? Why can't I see any Nitrites yet?

starsplitter7
Posts: 5054
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:04 pm
Location: Tampa, Florida

Re: Sudden loss of fish including loaches 6ft tank

Post by starsplitter7 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:37 pm

If you have nitrates, you shouldn't have nitrites, unless something is seriously wrong. By the time you start producing nitrates, the nitrite bacteria are in full swing. You might be cycled. Do you use Prime? If you use Prime and API tests you can get false positives (an ammonia test from seachem will give you more accurate results), since Prime does not eliminate ammonia just makes it non-toxic. That way it is available for the bacteria to eat.

When you clean the filters, are you rinsing them with old tap water or cleaning them? If you are cleaning them you could be rinsing away or killing the good bacteria which will cause your tank to start cycling again.

Ammonia at zero with an accurate test is the goal. Otherwise I do checks. Did you check your tapwater to make sure there's nothing major wrong with your water.

birddancer
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:30 pm

Re: Sudden loss of fish including loaches 6ft tank

Post by birddancer » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:49 pm

starsplitter7 wrote:If you have nitrates, you shouldn't have nitrites, unless something is seriously wrong. By the time you start producing nitrates, the nitrite bacteria are in full swing. You might be cycled. Do you use Prime? If you use Prime and API tests you can get false positives (an ammonia test from seachem will give you more accurate results), since Prime does not eliminate ammonia just makes it non-toxic. That way it is available for the bacteria to eat.

When you clean the filters, are you rinsing them with old tap water or cleaning them? If you are cleaning them you could be rinsing away or killing the good bacteria which will cause your tank to start cycling again.

Ammonia at zero with an accurate test is the goal. Otherwise I do checks. Did you check your tapwater to make sure there's nothing major wrong with your water.
Hi Starsplitter,

Yes I certainly use prime and API tests. I couldn't get a Seachem Ammonia Multi-test anywhere but I have ordered a similar thing from JBL I think it is? It will distinguish between safe ammonia and toxic ammonia.

Also I have had a Seachem ammonia alert stuck to the front of the glass for a week now and am yet to see it change from "Safe" does it tell the difference between the two ammonias?. My PH is very low also.

When I clean my filters I use only tank water and I never use a sponge or scourer. Just my fingers if I need to. The sponges and wool I just rinse and squeeze out.

My tap water is actuall quite neutural;
This was my result after testing the tap water on 14th sep
AMM 0.0
NITRATE 0.0
NITRITE 0.0
PH 6.4

Assuming my ammonia is non toxic what would my next step be? Still do PWC's every night?

starsplitter7
Posts: 5054
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:04 pm
Location: Tampa, Florida

Re: Sudden loss of fish including loaches 6ft tank

Post by starsplitter7 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:22 pm

I have the Seachem in tank indicator too, and it does tell you if there is toxic ammonia (that's why you have the seachem instead of the API). If I use a lot of Pirme, I expect to see .25 on API and I use a lot more oxygen. I would put the indicator in something that has ammonia (like liquid) ammonia and see if it reacts. If it does, then I would reduce the water changes and give the fish a chance to relax. Watch them very carefully. When my water is normal I do 25-50% water changes every two weeks or so. If I add fish, I do them more often. If I feed zucchini I do it the night before the water change. I have super big catfish and feed them an entire zucchini cut into quarters. That produces a lot of waste.

Sounds like you might be safe now. :) I find water changes to be the best cure for illness, although meds have been needed. I have changed two small tanks tonight, and intend to do two more changes tonight.

birddancer
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:30 pm

Re: Sudden loss of fish including loaches 6ft tank

Post by birddancer » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:53 am

starsplitter7 wrote:I have the Seachem in tank indicator too, and it does tell you if there is toxic ammonia (that's why you have the seachem instead of the API). If I use a lot of Pirme, I expect to see .25 on API and I use a lot more oxygen. I would put the indicator in something that has ammonia (like liquid) ammonia and see if it reacts. If it does, then I would reduce the water changes and give the fish a chance to relax. Watch them very carefully. When my water is normal I do 25-50% water changes every two weeks or so. If I add fish, I do them more often. If I feed zucchini I do it the night before the water change. I have super big catfish and feed them an entire zucchini cut into quarters. That produces a lot of waste.

Sounds like you might be safe now. :) I find water changes to be the best cure for illness, although meds have been needed. I have changed two small tanks tonight, and intend to do two more changes tonight.
That makes alot of sense Star! I'm going to see if I can buy some liquid ammonia tonight maybe at the supermarket? Or hardware store?

I do have quite good air in my tank, my aquis 1050 makes alot of waves and I have a bubble wall that stretches th efull 6 foot along the back wall, as well as 3 airstones. Just 4 days ago I also added heaps and heaps of new plants (as ppl here would know loaches chew through alot ;)).

I have to say that my little community is looking a whole lot happier and healthier the past few days. Lots more movement around the tank!

When I finally get on top you can bet I will be keeping up with the water changes in future!!!! I'm just so shattered I had to lose my precious old clown loach & clown pleco in the process :( :(

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