had a tragedy.......

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loachlover77
Posts: 64
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:01 pm
Location: Bremerton, WA

had a tragedy.......

Post by loachlover77 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:13 am

I haven't been on for a long time, but thought that I would try to get answers here since I have been trying to find out why one of my clown loaches died. Here is the story on that:

I was doing a deep clean on my 55 gallon tank on Monday the 12th of November 2012. I put the clown loaches and plecos in a 5 gallon bucket which I rinsed pretty well before using as I had jsut bought two of them. After I put the fish in the 5 gallon bucket I proceeded to tank the water out of the tank all the way to the rocks. Water was still covering the rocks but the gravel vac wasn't able to suck anymore water out. I kept an eye on the fish in the 5 gallon bucket because it has been forever since they had to be in a 5 gallon bucket and I didn't want them to get too stressed. Well maybe a half hour or so after being in the 5 gallon bucket, Flash, my medium clown loach started laying on his side. I didn't think anything about it, but then he kept doing it and acting like he wasn't well. So I put like 10 gallons in the 55 gallon, just enough he could swim around, and heat and an air stone, plus I put him in the tank also. He didn't get any better. When I would pour water into the tank he would swim upright, but it wouldn't last long because he was on his side again. He stayed on his side while I filled up the tank. Yes I put dechlor in the tank when he was in the tank with the new water. Sadly, Flash passed away on Monday, November 12, 2012. When I took him out of the tank, which was right away, I noticed some yellow/gold stuff like dust behind his eye. I was thinking that he had velvet and I never knew about it because he didn't show any signs of it. I am wondering what he died from. Anyone have any ideas? I know that it could have been stress from the water change, but my other two clown loaches are in good health, they never showed any sign of stress from the water change at all and they are doing great.

I put some aquari-sol in the tank as a preventative for any diseases, that I got from a member on a different forum that I am on, and I plan on doing weekly water changes and testing my water every week.

Right now my levels are as follows: pH 7.6, ammonia .25ppm, nitrite 0ppm, and nitrate 80ppm

My nitrates were a little higher than 80ppm before I did the deep clean. I did change my filter cartridges because when I rinsed them in the bucket with the tank water, they split open. So right now, my tank is going through a mini cycle, which is okay because my fish are used to going through a mini cycle. Plus I am keeping an eye on them.

Any ideas as to what caused Flash to pass away? I am just devastated with his loss. I am hoping to know what happened.

starsplitter7
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Re: had a tragedy.......

Post by starsplitter7 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:59 am

I am very sorry that you lost a beloved fish. I know how terrible that can be.

I would say that the stress of putting him in the bucket may have caused the problem. Also may not have been enough oxygen. I add an airstone, if I put fish in a bucket.

I never deep clean my tanks, because of the problems with cycling. If I have a major problem with my tank, I remove the decor except a couple pieces for all my fish to hide in and I clean one half of the tank and removed 1/2 the water. That is the most I do at once.

A major cleaning plus changing the filters can really alter the chemistry in the tank. If the fish are already stressed by being in a dirty tank, I do believe this can put them over the edge for stress.

Even .25 Ammonia is enough to really hurt the fish. It burns their gills and makes it very difficult for them to breath.

I try to clean my tanks every two weeks (don't always manage it, but I do try.) About 25% every two weeks. I also try to have two filters on each tank, andrinse or change one filter cartridge. LIke you I rinse the cartridge until the cartridge falls apart. But if I have a problem in the tank, I remove the cartridge altogether. I don't want it adding problems back to the water. Hopefully you will not suffer any more losses.

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DainBramage1991
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Location: Northern New England

Re: had a tragedy.......

Post by DainBramage1991 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:28 pm

I agree with Starsplitter7, any ammonia is too much, especially when your pH is above 7.0. Ammonia becomes toxic (I don't know the exact chemistry) above neutral, so when we run alkaline tank water (mine is always at 7.5 thanks to my tap water) we have to be even more careful to make sure that the ammonia level is always at 0.

I also agree about putting an airstone in the bucket when putting fish in, I like to go one step further and actually put a small sponge filter out of an active tank in. That provides aeration, and a small amount of biological filtration to help them through the ordeal. Also, you may have done this, but if not, always fill the bucket with water from the tank where the fish come from. Also, the bucket itself should be one specifically dedicated for aquarium use only, so that it won't be contaminated with soaps or other toxins. Plastic has pores that can hold these toxins indefinitely, and then they can open when exposed to warm tank water, releasing the toxins you may have thought you rinsed out.

Your nitrates seem very high, especially for a tank that's just been refilled with new water. Typically one would expect to see the nitrates around 10-20 ppm in an established tank, or 20-40 in a crowded one that is in need of a water change. You shouldn't let the nitrates go above 40 ppm, ever. You may have nitrates in your tap water, which you should certainly test for. If this is the case, you may want to either buy RO water from your LFS or invest in an RO filter of your own to clean up your tap water.

Again, I agree with Starsplitter7 about the deep cleaning, it's just not necessary. If you vacuum the gravel regularly during water changes and occasionally pull the decorations to vacuum under them, you're doing all of the tank cleaning needed. Everything else can be handled by the filtration system, the tank's biology, and the fish themselves.

loachlover77
Posts: 64
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:01 pm
Location: Bremerton, WA

Re: had a tragedy.......

Post by loachlover77 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:45 pm

Thank you. So it could have been the toxins from the bucket that could have killed Flash. Yeah I am going to do a water change every week and hopefully the nitrates will go down steadily. The other two clown loaches are doing well every day. With the ammonia, I just cannot let it get pass .50ppm because Baby Girl will start having problems. She has been sick before with three diseases and a friend of mine and I pulled her through, she was pretty far gone, but we pulled her through them. Anyway. I will be doing weekly water changes, about 50% a week.

That is a good suggestion about putting an air stone in the bucket. I didn't think of that.

Yes I did fill the 5 gallon bucket with some tank water. That way they were not too stressed.
Last edited by loachlover77 on Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Diana
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Location: Near San Franciso

Re: had a tragedy.......

Post by Diana » Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:00 pm

With nitrates at 80 ppm right after a 90% water change that included deep vacuuming I would assume nitrates in the tap water.
Please test it.

If the tap water has nitrates over 10 ppm then you need to do something about it. (See below)

If the tap water has much lower nitrates, or zero, you can use it for water changes.

With the current level of nitrates, 80 ppm, I would be doing daily 25% water changes in the hopes of getting it lower. This will also be necessary for the mini cycle the tank is going through. Even worse than NO3 is NH3. Make sure you are using a dechlorinator that locks up ammonia, it will say so on the label. Some dechlorinators will just break the chlorine-ammonia bond and not lock up the ammonia. They might say they deal with chloramine, but unless they also say they lock up ammonia they are probably turning the ammonia loose in the tank. When you have an additional ammonia problem, these products are not helpful. The right products may include instructions about how much product to add to lock up how much ammonia.

When the filter media falls apart, but it is still the home of the nitrifying bacteria do not throw it away.
I would put it into several mesh bags and hang it in the tank (if there is no room for it in the filter).
Then remove one mesh bag per week. This will spread out the loss of the beneficial bacteria so that the tank should not go through a mini cycle.

Another way to help is to add the very species of bacteria that you have lost. Look for a bottled bacteria product that has Nitrospira species of bacteria. Do not waste your money on anything else, the have the wrong species of bacteria.

Another way to help is to add as many live plants as possible. Plants are a great nitrogen sink, but they do have some needs like good light. If they die they just add to the mess. If you have fish that eat plants then plants are not going to be a long term solution here, but I happen to like planted tanks, so I find the set up involved is not an issue. If you do not want to bother, then you will have to be the nitrogen removal system.

Feed less. The protein in fish food is the main source of nitrogen in the aquarium. Especially during this emergency, feed only half the amount you were feeding, and skip feeding at least one day per week.
If you have carnivorous fish then watch them eat and vacuum the scraps immediately.
If you have fish that are willing to eat vegetables (almost no protein in vegetables) then feed more vegies.
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How to deal with tap water that has high nitrate.
1) There are regulations about tap water quality that say the tap water should not have more than 10 ppm NO3. If you are in an area with such regulations, and are on municipal water system, report that water.
2) Calibrate your test kit.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showt ... =calibrate
3) Remove nitrate from the tap water with a filter. Reverse Osmosis will do this. If your nitrate is over 10 ppm you will want to do this for the whole family.
4) To remove nitrate but not use RO here are some ways that will work for aquarium use.
4a) Set up a separate tank that is dedicated to plants. High light, proper substrate, CO2, fertilizer... No fish.
Run tap water into this tank. Allow the plants to remove the nitrogen.
Use the water from this tank to do water changes. You will have to monitor it to see how fast the plants can remove the NO3.
You could also set up a tank like this and plumb it to the fish tank, so the plants remove the nitrogen but the fish cannot eat the plants.
4b) There are nitrate removing inserts for the filter. They tend to be a bit expensive, but you could get one to help lower the NO3 right now, and see if you want to prep your water with it. This would mean running the new water into a garbage can and running a filter on it with one of these inserts long enough to get rid of the nitrate. You could add other filter media if your tap water has other issues. I am not advertising this product, just using it as an example of nitrate removing media:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... 4205&rel=1
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

loachlover77
Posts: 64
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:01 pm
Location: Bremerton, WA

Re: had a tragedy.......

Post by loachlover77 » Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:58 pm

I always fast my fish once a week. Today is fast day for them. I will test my tap water for nitrates. I am also going to be testing my tank water every week with the water changes. I am doing weekly water changes, I won't do daily. I don't want to chance stressing my clown loaches. My plecos may be able to handle the daily water changes but I don't think that the clown loaches will. But I will test my tap water for nitrates. I also will be doing weekly water changes not daily. Also I am doing 50% water changes weekly. I hope to get my nitrates down and when I get them down, I am going to keep them down, below 40ppm. I will post the results after I test my tap water for nitrates.

loachlover77
Posts: 64
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:01 pm
Location: Bremerton, WA

Re: had a tragedy.......

Post by loachlover77 » Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:44 pm

Well tested my water and the results are as follows:

ammonia= .25ppm
nitrite= 0ppm
nitrate= 80ppm
pH= 7.6

I am doing a water change today so hopefully the ammonia will go down with the water change. I will test again in a few days and see if it went down.

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