stubborn case of ich

[Jennifer]

Thanks for the detailed ich information, but I wanted to check a couple of things-

Different products have different instructions on them. I have Super Ich Cure, Nox Ich, and Rid Ich. I was using SIC at half strength every other day for 2 rounds and ich was still present. I switched to NI at half strength for 1 round (every day for 3 days) and it was still present. I picked up RI and online instructions and on the bottle were to use it at full strength up to twice daily (on loaches). I tried this and 2 died after 2 treatments, 12 hours apart. I did an immediate 75% water change.

I'm on a well and I have been very careful about water temperature, but I have been very aggressive with water changes- up to 100% several times over the past week and a half of treatment, sometimes scrubbing out the empty quarantine tank (just water and a paper towel) while fish sat in a dish. I wasn't sure which would be harder on the fish at times, the chemicals or the massive water changes but I felt like I had to do something since the meds alone weren't working.

After the 2 loaches died yesterday I am frustrated and feel at a loss for what to do next. I have not missed any treatments. I have followed instructions closely. These loaches came from a new store in our area. They were very small and I had a few waste away and die. They were replaced by the store each time- this is how ich ended up getting introduced to the quarantine tank. They weren't the strongest looking fish in the first place but just before ich took over the 4 of them were starting to look pretty good. I am feeding frozen foods and have the tank at 82F.

Was it wrong to use the Rid Ich (malachite and formalin) at full strength?
Nox Ich (malachite and NaCl) says to use daily for 3 days- is this a mistake?
I wonder if the super ich cure was old and not effective any longer- it was stored for many years.
Was I too aggressive with water changes? Not aggressive enough?
Would you suggest trying to treat this with water changes alone? (2 tanks, moving fish between them daily and scrubbing each out between use?)
The 2 loaches I have left are finally showing fewer cysts. They look like they've been through hell but they did eat some bloodworms today.

If it would be useful to read more details about the past few weeks I'll link another forum where I posted about this (I couldn't remember my username/password here at first). I was tired and feeling a little dramatic when I wrote it- my apologies
http://www.eastcoastaquariumsociety.ca/ ... the-battle

Thanks
Jen

[DainBramage1991]

Having just dealt with a 2 month long battle with medication resistant ich, aka "super-ich", I feel I can comment here. This is based on my own experience and a fair amount of online research.

First, get the tank up to 86-87 degrees and keep it there until at least 2 full weeks after the last sign/symptom of ich. At 86 F the ich is no longer able to reproduce effectively, and will eventually die off. However, some ich may stay present (not dormant!) in/on your fish for a week or longer without you knowing it, being partially suppressed by the fish's immune system. This is why the long time-frame is important.

If you have the resistant strain of ich, which I'm guessing you do, none of those medications will be effective. The only medication shown to be effective (to my knowledge), is quinine sulfate.

A non-medication approach was effective in my case. I had my tank at 87 F for nearly a month (it took a while for the ich to completely disappear), performed daily partial water changes including vacuuming the gravel, and added a UV sterilizer. I'm not sure the UV sterilizer was actually part of the cure, as I was only able to get my hands on one after the ich had died off, but I'm confident that it will help prevent any recurrence.

Raise the temp to 87 (slowly) and keep it there, perform regular partial water changes (100% water changes will be very stressful for your already sick fish), consider adding a small amount of aquarium salt (start at around 1 tsp/gallon), and keep at it for as long as it takes to cure your fish. Be sure to add extra aeration, as the higher temperature water holds less oxygen. Avoid the temptation to lower the temperature prematurely, as this will allow any remaining ich to spread again. At least 2 full weeks after the LAST SIGN of any ich is the absolute minimum, and 3 or 4 weeks wouldn't hurt.

Good luck, I hope you are able to get your fish healthy again.

[Diana]

Many medications sound like Ich can be cured in just a few days. This is a lie.
Ich can live on the fish where meds have no effect for several days to a week, or even longer.

When Ich falls off the fish it lands on the floor of the tank. It lives there for a day or so and reproduces. Only the babies are affected by meds. They must find a host within 24 hours (in warmest tank temperatures) or a few days (room temperature tanks) or they die.

You can reduce the population of Ich that has fallen off the fish with water changes. But you do not need to do 100% water changes. Just do a REALLY THOROUGH gravel vac every other day. If the fish are in a bare bottom tank this is really easy.

If you are using any of the dye based medicines do not use Amquel or Amquel Plus dechlor. (Probably do not need dechlorinator for well water, anyway). Read the label on whatever dechlor you are using. (this is especially for those of us on municipal water, where chlorine or chloramine is used)

Salt, heat, UV sterilizer and water changes can work against most sorts of Ich, but there is a strain that can tolerate all the heat that the fish can, and are also medicine resistant.

When you first start using a medicine the fish have some Ich on them that just landed and you cannot see. Even those new Ich are burrowed in under the slime coat where the medicine cannot get to them. Over the next few days these Ich grow to the point that you can see them. This is why it seems medication does not work. New Ich keeps showing up for a few days. That is normal.
However, the Ich should not keep on showing up past the first few days. If more and more keep on showing up, then the treatment is not working.

I think you have not been diligent enough in maintaining therapeutic levels of the medication in the water for long enough. You use something, then quit just when the new babies are emerging, so they find hosts and continue the cycle.

[Jennifer]

Thanks for your thoughts. I have treated ich before, on scaled fish without trouble. This is my first experience with sick loaches. I am surely doing something wrong, but I'm not sure what... I have been following instructions closely.

The 2 remaining loaches look like they're doing okay, though they are still covered in cysts. I increased the temperature to 86/87. The tank is overfiltered for its size (should be getting good aeration) so I didn't add an airstone yet. I decided to continue treating with the nox ich at the reduced dose of 3 drops per 5 gallons once daily for fear of losing any headway I might have gotten. The instructions say to treat for 3 days then water change, skip 1 day of treatment and then start again if needed. Tomorrow will be day 3 of the current treatment.

I'll let you know how things go and I'm open to any more advice you may have.

[Jennifer]

Thought I'd post an update. Just when I managed to get rid of the ich, the weaker of the 2 remaining loaches went pale, started panting and died within 24 hours. The last looked like he was doing well, but then did the same thing today. I wonder if it was infection, given the warm water and probably the damage to their skin from the parasites.

I have 2 replacement clowns the store gave me 1 week ago that have been living in a bucket with a filter and heater. They haven't shown any problems yet, but they're hard to see in the dark bucket... wish me luck and if you have any suggestions I could use them. I am so disappointed and am feeling defeated. I am planning to give the new ones one more week before moving them into my main tank.

In the meantime I put the 5 gallon quarantine tank in the dishwasher (no soap) on the sanitizing setting. I am soaking the parts (filter and heater) in a bucket of hot water. I was thinking I'd let them air dry for 48 hours or so then move the new loaches into the tank with the filter they have now. Do you think this is safe? I threw away the filter media from the sick tank. I can't see the remaining loaches well enough to really know if they're healthy in the bucket.

[DainBramage1991]

Make sure you thoroughly re-clean the surface of the tank you put in the dishwasher. There is likely some residual soap on it (even though you didn't add any, your dishwasher may have had some left in it), which is toxic to fish.

[Diana]

By throwing away the filter media you have thrown away a really big portion of the nitrifying bacteria.
Monitor the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels, and do water changes to keep the ammonia under .25ppm and the nitrite under 1 ppm.
If you are not already adding salt (NaCl) do so. 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons is the dose to prevent Brown Blood Disease. This happens when there is nitrite in the water.

Moving fish between 2 or more tanks is a valid Ich treatment.
Bare bottom tank, just a couple of rocks for hiding places.
Thoroughly clean the empty tank, refill with all new water, add dechlor and put the fish in.
Repeat daily or every other day.
The empty tank and rocks can be cleaned with just water, then allowed to dry overnight. Ich cannot survive drying.

By moving the fish daily or every other day there is no time to build up toxic levels of ammonia or nitrite. (Test to be sure)

While you are doing this I would run the fishless cycle in a separate bucket with all new filter media. When the Ich is treated and you are ready to set up the main tank you will want a cycled filter. Fishless cycle is a sticky.
You can put the media in the bucket and run an air bubbler or small pump like a table top fountain pump.