Hillstream Loach Health Concerns

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Kururin
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Hillstream Loach Health Concerns

Post by Kururin » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:01 pm

I've recently joined the forum in hopes of getting some help. I purchased my first hillstream loach about 2 months ago. He's been doing fine as far as I can tell. He seems to hide a lot in a cave near the filter output. Once in a while I'll see him out and about. Ive noticed a few patches on him that seem to be missing scales. Each time I've seen him they are different: smaller, in a different spot, etc.

Yesterday I was concerned with the size and color. They were much lighter than usual and larger.
I don't believe it to be patchy disease since it appears to be common that fish afflicted with this pass soon after the patches are present.
I'm also not sure that it's ich since the pictures I've seen seem to be tiny white spots as opposed to patches.
However, I'm no expert. So I was hoping all the knowledgeable folks here might be of some help.

I have a pleco in the tank with him as well who is not exhibiting any symptoms.

My loach was out and about yesterday much more than usual and was feeding on a cucumber. He was also out this morning, as active as he has been on the other occasions that I have seen him.

I tried to get a few pictures yesterday. I've included them below. If I have a chance I'll try to get some more.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/46/img1876sk.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/15/img1870p.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/515/img1879ur.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/43/img1875ag.jpg/

There are two prominent patches.

As far as water conditions go, I've been having some trouble with ammonia. The tank was fully cycled but the ammonia crept up again. It was a little below 0.25 ppm on Saturday. I was going to proceed with a water change but decided to test the tap water as well and noticed the tap water tested higher than the tank. I may have disturbed the bacteria in the past week or so (the pleco came home from the pet store with frayed fins and I've been a little aggressive with vacuuming the gravel and doing water changes for him), so I'm hoping the levels will return to normal soon.

Any help would be greatly appreciated! I want to make sure my little guy is healthy.

Kururin
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Re: Hillstream Loach Health Concerns

Post by Kururin » Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:02 pm

Well, until today I hadn't seen my little friend since sometime Tuesday. However, I just spotted him today and he doesn't look good :( There is a very large patch (maybe twice the size of the previous patches) on his right side, larger than ever and the coloring doesn't look good. It's not as white or pale as any of the other patches I've seen, it looks a little mottled. Unfortunately I wasn't able to get a picture due to the position/location he's currently in.
I'll do my best to keep an eye out for a photo-op.

I'm very concerned at this point. I'm considering pulling him out and placing him in a separate tank so I can keep an eye on him and start treatment if necessary.

He's in a 75 gallon right now but I'll have the option to place him in a separate 5 gallon tank. My only concern is that I do not have an additional heater to use and it's still a bit cold in these parts. The average temperature in the house seems to float between 66 and 70⁰ F; I'm thinking the extremes will be just a little bit too low, please correct me if I'm wrong. As far as the tank setup for this goes, I do not have an additional bubbler to increase oxygen content and my only method of filtration would be a small HOB that probably wouldn't aggregate the surface enough.

Any suggestion on where to go from here would be greatly appreciated. I will post pictures and updates if possible.

My mom had speculated that perhaps the patches resulted from rubbing against rocks so much - he tends to spend most of his time near a homemade cave in the corner of the tank. He likes to wiggle around between all of the rocks and he may be scraping up against them. Not sure if this is a legitimate possibility. :?:

Kururin
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Re: Hillstream Loach Health Concerns

Post by Kururin » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:06 pm

UPDATE:

I was able to get a picture today and examine my loach for more than a few fleeting seconds.

One of the original patches that I posted about a week ago is minimal now and appears to be on its way out.

I have had a chance to take a picture exhibiting the large mottle patch that I am now most concerned with:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/210/img1882jv.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/839/img1888r.jpg/

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Jim Powers
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Re: Hillstream Loach Health Concerns

Post by Jim Powers » Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:52 am

I would definitely pull the fish and put it in a separate tank for treatment. If you are concerned about oxygen levels using just a HOB filter, just drop the water level down about and inch or two so that the water coming out of the filter has to drop a bit before hitting the surface. That should create additional agitation and oxygen. I would not worry too much about the temps, either. My biggest concerns would be problems with the 5 gallon tank and ammonia levels if its not cycled. If it isnt, you will want to try to put in some gravel or filter media from a cycled tank.
As for treatment, that depends on what it wrong with the fish. I can't tell from the pic but is this a smooth white patch on the fish or does it have a cottony growth on it? If its smooth, I would treat with antibiotics as is described in this article on patchy disease.
http://www.loaches.com/disease-treatmen ... am-loaches

If its cottony, it could be true fungus, treat with one of many fungus treatments, or if its grayish white stringy material , it could be columnaris "body fungus" which is treated with an antibiotic like Maracyn (erythromycin).
Good luck!!! Keep us posted.
Sometimes hillstreams can respond well to treatment for such things but you will need to monitor the fish and make sure the water quality of the treatment tank does not cause more harm than the whatever ailment the fish has.
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Kururin
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Re: Hillstream Loach Health Concerns

Post by Kururin » Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:17 pm

Thanks so much for the reply Jim.
I'm running the HOB in the current tank right now to try to get some bacteria in the media. In a little while I'll set up the 5 gallon - which unfortunately has not been cycled. I'll be putting some of the substrate from the current tank in as well.

I have never set up a treatment tank before so I'm not 100% sure how to proceed. I've looked at a few guides online. I am considering filling the 5 gallon with water from the current tank so that the parameters are the same. Is this a good idea or should I start with fresh water?

The original patches were smooth, but the most recent patch is not as clear cut. I won't be able to get treatment until later this afternoon, so I'm going to hold off on deciding what to use until then. I'll try to get a good look at him once I transfer him over to the hospital tank and make a decision from there. If possible I'll get a better picture.

Thanks again for all the help, I'll be sure to update often. I'll be certain to monitor the water conditions as well.

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Jim Powers
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Re: Hillstream Loach Health Concerns

Post by Jim Powers » Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:06 pm

I would use tank water on the hospital tank.
Good luck!!
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Helmet
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Re: Hillstream Loach Health Concerns

Post by Helmet » Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:31 am

Hi there

This may or may not help but I am currently treating 4 Sewellia Lineolata in a quarantine tank for suspected velvet. Their behaviour, appearance & appetite are all excellent however 2 of my botia started showing symptoms of the parasite shortly after the introduction of the hillstreams (even after I quarantined them.)

Most, if not all, advice I have found states that any kind of chemical treatment will kill or maim these fish in horrible ways, and that the only viable treatment if you dont want to kill them is increasing the temperature & reducing the light. Also salt is often recommended but we know that loach are intolerant.
Well after several weeks of carefully increased temp & total blackout the infection had in fact become much worse; there was much clamped fins , flicking & stressed behaviour from the botids, (interestingly the sewellia showed none of these symptoms - the only sign was a small patch of gold specks on their underside directly on the gills), and the only viable recommended treatment was obviously not working.

What to do then, in such a situation? The only options I could see were to use chemicals or watch the parasites slowly overwhelm the fish.
Reluctantly I began treating with chemicals, firstly Methylene blue. This was a good move I believe because it increases the uptake of oxygen to blood hemagloben & the velvet parasite attacks the gill tissue, reducing the fish ability to breathe.
After much research I also gave a fairly large dose (relative to sensitive fish) of Malachite green ox' & Formalin. Before people start screaming "NOOOO" I have to reemphasise that these fish were suffering badly & I really thought I was about to start losing them - this was almost a last ditch 'kill or cure' attempt (so I thought).

Anyway, the short story is that there was a massive improvement within a couple of days. Since then I have been rigidly sticking to water changes & re doses of the chems every couple of days. And my point is that there have been NO adverse reactions from any of the fish to the treatment. The Improvement was so good to see especially as I honestly thought I was going to lose my large Polka Dot, he was really bad.

In your case, and if this patchiness is indeed a fungal infection, I would seriously consider treating with Methylene Blue. It won't hurt the fish & it is a fairly effective fungicide. Make sure you research how to use it etc, like as a bath or in a quarantine tank. I hear a lot about dips/baths but iMo catching the already sick fish & putting it through all that is going to stress it out further, but just use your instincts. Also bear in mind that it will probably begin killing off any beneficial bacteria so do keep an eye on your ammonia etc.

I suppose my point is just that although these fish ARE much more sensitive to chemicals , you should not be afraid to use some medications as a last resort without believing you will instantly kill your fish.
Mine have survived some robust chemical warfare & are coming through the other side!

Sorry to make it such a long story , anyway hope they're ok.

Kururin
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Re: Hillstream Loach Health Concerns

Post by Kururin » Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:36 pm

Hi Helmet, thanks for the info. I'm glad to hear that your fish are doing better.

I decided to go with the treatment plan for patchy disease. The patches did not look cottony. I just completed my third treatment about an hour ago. The levels appear to be stable so far. I have my fingers crossed that I'll see some sort of improvement or at least no change tomorrow.

If I don't see any improvement after the ten day treatment period I'll consider a fungicide. I really appreciate the info Helmet, if it comes to this then I will definitely keep Methylene Blue in mind; any idea what the shelf life for this is? When I received the 75 gallon I have now from a family friend he gave me some methylene blue and other miscellaneous supplies. It's fairly old (he hadn't kept any fish in years) so I doubt I'll be using it.

Helmet
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Re: Hillstream Loach Health Concerns

Post by Helmet » Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:50 am

Hi there Kururin

Meth Blue solution has an indefinite shelf life if stored properly.

If it comes to it & you feel you have to use it, do make sure to research its effects first, as you would any medication..

Anyway, I hope it doesn't come to that - fingers crossed that your first treatment method works. I know how frustrating/worrying it is when you know somethings wrong but don't know what.. and things don't appear to be improving despite your efforts. If only they could talk!


Best of luck!

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Jim Powers
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Re: Hillstream Loach Health Concerns

Post by Jim Powers » Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:23 am

What are you using as a treatment,Kururin?
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Kururin
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Re: Hillstream Loach Health Concerns

Post by Kururin » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:33 pm

Thanks for the reminder Helmet; I'll definitely look in to that if need be.

I agree completely, my stomach had been churning over this for some time before I took action.

Jim, I'm using the treatment plan that you recommended for patchy disease. I'm using Maracyn and Maracyn-Two. Unfortunately the water is fairly cloudy so it's difficult to monitor the patches.

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Jim Powers
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Re: Hillstream Loach Health Concerns

Post by Jim Powers » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:19 pm

The water sometimes gets cloudy when using Maracyn 2 but it will clear up.
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Kururin
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Re: Hillstream Loach Health Concerns

Post by Kururin » Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:10 pm

That's what I had been seeing online. It's looking better now. However, my loach is not. There doesn't appear to be any major improvement or minor for that matter.

Since I'm in a 5 gallon I have been dosing half of the prescribed amounts so I'll still have some antibiotic left. However, I'm thinking continuing treatment past the regular 10 day recommendation will not be helpful at this point.

I think I may need to treat for a fungus if there is still no improvement by Friday.

He's been a little more active today and yesterday than usual, however he doesn't appear to be taking to any food. The ammonia was a little bit high at the end of last week but I've been keeping on top of water changes and the levels are better now.

If there is no change in the patches by Friday:
- Should I proceed with treating for fungus?
- And if so, how long should I wait to begin treatment? I'm thinking he might appreciate a break from the current medications.

Thanks for all of the input and help thus far, I cannot express how much I appreciate it.

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Jim Powers
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Re: Hillstream Loach Health Concerns

Post by Jim Powers » Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:16 pm

I'm not sure. If you decide to go with the fungus treatment, I would do a partial water change, use some carbon to get the meds out and start treatment in about a day or two. Sometimes, with patchy disease, you don't notice much change in the patch until late in the treatment. What is generally noticeable is the fishes improved appetite and more normal behavior.
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Kururin
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Re: Hillstream Loach Health Concerns

Post by Kururin » Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:07 pm

Well, unfortunately after 10 days of treatment with the antibiotics there hasn't been measurable improvement. While the patches do look better, I'm not convinced that the problem has been solved. As I had noticed in the past the patches tended to appear and disappear only to reappear elsewhere.

I have also noticed that there has been no improvement in appetite. I have tried kale as well as cucumber and lettuce with no evidence that the food had been eaten.

I unfortunately did not have the chance to begin another treatment. However after the last dosage period I performed a water changed an placed a carbon insert in to the HOB. I've been keeping on top of water changes since the ammonia has unfortunately been a problem.

After doing a little more searching I've decided to take Helmet's advice and treat with Methylene Blue, assuming the problem is a fungus.

From what I had read online the dosage recommendations vary. Since he's already in a hospital tank I'll be treating there and will not do a dip/bath.

I'm going to begin with a drop of methylene blue (as I've seen anywhere from 1 drop/5 gallons to 1 drop/gallon recommended) and see how he is doing tomorrow afternoon. While many treatments recommend performing a water change after about 3 days I'm fairly confident I will need to continue with daily water changes to keep the ammonia as low as possible.

With that in mind, I am considering dosing again after the water change, but I'm not 100% certain on this as I have read that dosing more than twice can be harmful.

If anyone has any thoughts I'd greatly appreciate some additional input! Thanks for everyone's help thus far.

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