Losing fish and High Nitrates

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Sadielynne
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Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:17 am

Losing fish and High Nitrates

Post by Sadielynne » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:19 pm

I am the one taking care of the 5 aquariums at a vets home, with limited money! I have lost 5 fish in the aquarium that is home to 3 clown loaches, so I AM WORRIED! If something happens to them I will surely die!!!!!!!!

Yesterday I tested the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. The ammonia and nitrites were fine, but the nitrates was HIGH!! YIKES!!! I would say it was in the 80 ppm range, if not a bit higher. Is this the cause of the fish loss? I read where tap water usually has nitrates in it, but I didn't think to test that water. Something with "sorb" in the title was recommended, to add to the filter, but I don't remember what it was. I will certainly get that, if I can (!) when I read the folders again, to find out exactly what it is.

Any thoughts on what to do? I had just done a partial water change, finding there really wasn't much "crap" in the gravel. I took out about 5 gallons of water. The only filter on the tank (all of them, actually!) is a canister filter - no undergravel filter because of very limited money. I am trying to get something changed so I can get the UG filters going, but it looks like an uphill battle, sad to say.

Please, I need some help!!!!!!! Paula

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DainBramage1991
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Location: Northern New England

Re: Losing fish and High Nitrates

Post by DainBramage1991 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:58 am

For high nitrates:
Short term fix: large water changes.
Long term fix: Live plants and proper tank stocking.
Other things to look at: possible overfeeding, overstocking, rotting materials hiding in the tank, etc.

As for the water changes, it's good to keep the math in mind: if you change only 10% of the water volume, then the nitrates will only go from 80 ppm to 72 ppm, and your fish will still be producing more (most fish expel up to a third of their body weight in waste every day). Even if you change 50% of the water volume, your nitrates will still be at 40 ppm. I don't recommend changing more than 50% at one time, to avoid over-stressing the fish. It's far better to do numerous (even daily) moderate water changes than doing large water changes infrequently.

If you are losing fish, there are likely other issues at play. 80 ppm of nitrates will stress the fish a bit, but it's unlikely that it would kill them.
Is the pH okay (you didn't mention it)? Is there a possibility that a toxin has been introduced into the tank? Filters working properly? Heaters working properly? Are there parasites? Are the fish ill? Unlikely, but are the fish dying of old age? Ammonia spikes from feeding/dead fish?

Undergravel filters are unnecessary and a pain to maintain. Canister filters are fantastic (particularly Eheim brand) but are usually insufficient by themselves because they sacrifice mechanical filtration for biological. If you need to add filtration, I recommend going with a run of the mill, inexpensive hang-on-back power filter, properly sized for the tank volume. Loaches are eating machines and require strong filtration, both mechanical and biological. 10 times the tank volume in total filter throughput per hour is usually what I aim for. (for example, the 3 filters in my 90 gallon tank have a combined water flow of over 1000 gallons per hour)

Diana
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Location: Near San Franciso

Re: Losing fish and High Nitrates

Post by Diana » Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:43 am

Undergravel Filters are an old fashioned way of increasing the biological filtration.
If there is no budget for more filters (of any sort) then skip it. Solve the problem some other way.

More water changes.
Slightly larger water changes.

Are the fish species right for the tanks? Clown Loaches, for example ought to be in tanks not smaller than 75 gallons, and even that is really too small. If this tank is not at least 100 gallons, and a long low tank I would suggest they get rid of the Clown Loaches and restock with more appropriate fish.

Are the tanks planted? Are the plants being well cared for? Good light, CO2, fertilizer? These can help remove many of the nutrients that come from fish food.
If the tanks are not planted, then reduce the stocking. This may make the person who feeds the fish feed less food.
The nitrate is really coming into the tank as protein in fish food. Even if there were zero fish in the tank, adding protein (fish food) will make the ammonia, nitrite then nitrate rise.

The cheapest solution to high nitrate is larger, more frequent water changes.
Adding Nitra-zorb is NOT the answer. These filter inserts are more expensive than water changes, and do not remove very much nitrate.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

Sadielynne
Posts: 77
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:17 am

Re: Losing fish and High Nitrates

Post by Sadielynne » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:36 pm

Thank you for the suggestions!

I am not sure of the ph, but I can test that today.

The fish get fed once a day, most of the time, with an occasional twice a day. I am the one that feeds most of the time and feed flake, algae tabs, and recently started adding some shrimp pellets. I feed cautiously, adding a bit more as it is eaten. I don't just dump and run! :) when I did do the last water change, there wasn't much uneaten food that came out of the gravel, as far as I can tell, but maybe there was more than I thought!

At one time, a resident had been feeding (OMG!!) and that DID demand a MAJOR water change, when I learned that bit of info!! That would have been several months ago - would that be a factor now?? there was no fish loss at that time, which I was afraid of, because the water was SO bad!

There were about 17 tetras (fruit, neon, 1 long-finned red serpae and flame), 1 pleco and 3 clowns in the tank (45 gal.). The neons have done fine (they were there when I started taking care of the tanks). I added the fish that have died probably about 3 months ago, so I don't think old age is a factor. 3 of 4 flame tetras have died, so I wondered about their hardiness. I wondered if the clowns would have bothered the tetras? I really have not seen them do that when I have tended to the tank, but that was my first thought, as I did see them picking on a dying fish. I know all fish will do that with a dead or dying one.

I will continue with water changes and testing, plus I'll see if I can find some live plants to add. I assume the pleco would be happy with that!!

Thank you, so much!!

When I have done major water changes, I probably take 25-30% out. THe last time I did take just the 10 gal. out, because I had done a water change not too long before that. There are no live plants and the canister filter seems fairly powerful, but I don't know if it has enough circulation for the loaches. I don't rem. the brand, off the top of my head.

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DainBramage1991
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Location: Northern New England

Re: Losing fish and High Nitrates

Post by DainBramage1991 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:56 pm

The tank is heavily overstocked. You have 22 fish in a tank that should only have 10 - 15. Also, the clowns and the pleco (depending on species) get quite large and bulky, and therefor contribute heavily to the ammonia load (which then becomes nitrates) in the tank.

I would definitely consider re-homing the clowns if I were you, as they are too much of a bio-load on your small system. You should also consider reducing the number of tetras in the tank.
It's not an easy thing, as we all love our clowns, but it would be best for them. As a general rule, clowns should be housed in a tank that's no smaller than 90 -100 gallons, preferably much larger. There are a number of good reasons for this guideline, not the least of which is the large waste output of these fish.

If you leave your setup as-is, you will always be battling water quality issues, particularly high nitrates.

Sadielynne
Posts: 77
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:17 am

Re: Losing fish and High Nitrates

Post by Sadielynne » Fri May 03, 2013 7:54 pm

Thanks for the input! My plan is to eventually bring the clowns home, altho' my 65 gal. may still not be big enough. I will have to save and get a larger tank, I guess!

At an inch per fish per gallon, I didn't think this tank (45 gal) was overloaded, but obviously there are less fish now, so hopefully, they will be OK.

Is that rule kind of outdated, now?

Again, many thanks!!

Diana
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Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:35 am
Location: Near San Franciso

Re: Losing fish and High Nitrates

Post by Diana » Fri May 03, 2013 10:52 pm

The one inch per gallon guide applies ONLY to fish no larger than 2".
It addresses only the chemistry issue: Oxygen supply, CO2 exchange, ammonia dilution, nitrate build up.
It says nothing about the social issues of the fish.

Serpae tetras, for example can get very nippy and pushy unless they are in a larger group. A single is highly likely to pester the other fish. I would get rid of the Serpae Tetra.

Clown Loaches and most Tetras are social fish, and are better if they are kept with half a dozen minimum, though a dozen or more Tetras make a much nicer school.

What species of Pleco? There are Plecos that eat wood, many that eat algae, and a few can rasp the plants pretty badly. In a tank like this (45 gallon) you might keep one Bristlenose or Rubberlip Pleco, or half a dozen Otocinclus, but never a Common Pleco.

If the tank is not now set up for plants then it highly likely does not have enough light. If there is no budget for improving the light, then do not waste money on plants. They will just die.

I would set up a tank like this with a large school of Tetra, but just one species. Neons are pretty durable, Glow Light Tetras are great, too. Then a group of Corydoras for the bottom areas. Pepper or Bronze Cories are good. If the tank seems to grow algae, then half a dozen Otocinclus.
45 gallon tank:
2 doz. Neon Tetras (24 fish @ 1.5" = 36 gallons)
half a dozen Cories (6 fish @ 2" = 12 gallons)
half a dozen Otos, but only if algae clean up is needed, and reduce the Neon Tetras.

Planted tanks can hold a lot more fish as long as things are going fine, but if there is a power outage, then the tank can go bad pretty fast, too. As long as the lights are on the plants are photosynthesizing, and removing a lot of toxins in the water. The power is also keeping the filter running, and the water circulation is providing the improved gas exchange the fish and plants need.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

Sadielynne
Posts: 77
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:17 am

Re: Losing fish and High Nitrates

Post by Sadielynne » Fri May 10, 2013 8:39 pm

I have checked the ph today and it is above the 7.6 that is indicated on the color chart. The 7.6 on the chart is more turquoise, so I am not really sure about the reading - the water turned a crystal blue zircon color. That is the best I can describe it! :)

Being small fish, I don't believe they have been overcrowded. The red serpae tetra is the one that looks like his fins have been beat up! I have not seen him be aggressive (nippy), but that doesn't mean he hasn't been!

No other news on this tank at the present!!

Thanks!

Diana
Posts: 4675
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:35 am
Location: Near San Franciso

Re: Losing fish and High Nitrates

Post by Diana » Wed May 15, 2013 12:05 am

There are several pH test kits available for aquariums.
If the kit you have only goes to 7.6, then you have a mid-range test. It tests through the 6s and into the low 7s, but is not valid for pH over 7.6, except in the way you are using it: You know the pH is higher than that.
Get the high-range test kit. It will test the pH from 7.6 on up into the 8s.
Actually, I would not bother.
pH is not really the best thing to target.
Fish want the right mineral level, not a specific pH. If there is no budget for doing much to the tank, then do not waste money on GH or KH tests, though. The 'fix' would be more expense.
If you take a water sample to a store (pet, fish...) they may test it for free. Make sure to get the actual numbers.
GH
KH
pH
ammonia
nitrite
nitrate.

Then, if the fish need to be replaced, then you can select fish that are optimum for that kind of water. For example, if the GH and KH are fairly high (hard water) then you can concentrate on live bearers, perhaps Rainbow Fish (can be expensive) or other fish that are not so picky about the water.
38 tanks, 2 ponds over 4000 liters of water to keep clean and fresh.

Happy fish keeping!

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