Clown Loach 911 - now with some photos

[saphphx]

I have a tank (48x16x16 inch) that is at nitrAtes: 5, nitrItes: 0, ammonia: 0, pH 6.8. Tank has 1 med ish plec (going to move when he gets to big), 8 clowns (biggest is 4 inches though most are 1-2 inches), 8 harliq. rasboras, 3 endlers. So not over stocked yet, our clowns and plecs are fatening up to go to the 6.5x2x2 foot tank. We are treating with a whitespot/anti fungal due to some white spot and fungus last week.

I have 3 loaches with different problems:

Clown 1: Little Squishy: Still smaller then the rest, about an inch and a half, very thin but seems happy.

Clown 2: No Tail Boy: Tail, top fin and chunk of head is just gone. We have been treating him and there is nothing in the tank that could do this kind of damage, but he is getting worse.

Clown 3: Bit skinny, has been swimming up at the top of the tank with his fins clamped, but looks fine other then that.

None of the fish have white spot or fungus on them anymore, but we are still treating for the dose on the bottle, its intrepet stuff.


Thanks!

[saphphx]

the small loach just died :'(

[tattooedgemini]

that's too bad...i really wish i could help....when all else fails quarantine and do a PWC.....I hope the rest of your little buddies make it....go easy on the chemicals, it weakens them and if it doesn't seem to be helping then i'd cut it out.....turn the tank heat up a bit and make sure to add extra airation to the water....

[grizzlyone]

prime, prime, prime to start. detoxifys and helps slime coat. It will at least take the usual suspects and then you can go from there on medicines.


Kevin

[saphphx]

what temp should I turn it up to? Its at 80 at the moment

what is prime, and do they sell it in the UK?

thanks guys!

[grizzlyone]

I'm not sure, but I think they sell it in the UK. Its Seachem Prime.
www.seachem.com.


Its a red and white bottle.

[saphphx]

will have to check the LFS tomorrow. Thanks

[helen nightingale]

good luck saphphx. i hope they get through OK.

if you are treating for ick, always give the full course as if you miss treatments some stages of the pathogen may not be killed, so the problems will come back again. but dont just chuck in treatments for the sake of it! you can probably be OK to go up to 30C on temperature for the clowns, but this will be a bit hot for the rasboras long term. quaraninte would definately be better. dont turn it up or down to quickly, whether you quarantine or not.

were the loaches very thin when you get them? and does the head look a bit out of proportion to the body? and what are you feeding them? do they seem quite happy eating and pooing?

and can you tell us what treatment you are giving for the one with the damaged head and fins? depending on what is actually wrong, melafix might help.

[saphphx]

good luck saphphx. i hope they get through OK.

Thank you!

if you are treating for ick, always give the full course as if you miss treatments some stages of the pathogen may not be killed, so the problems will come back again. but dont just chuck in treatments for the sake of it! you can probably be OK to go up to 30C on temperature for the clowns, but this will be a bit hot for the rasboras long term. quaraninte would definately be better. dont turn it up or down to quickly, whether you quarantine or not.

Will have to leave them in the main tank. Whenever we move things in and out of it they die. which is horrible to say but every quarantined fish has died, even from simple white spot and things like that. With meds don't you treat half dose as they have no scales?

were the loaches very thin when you get them? and does the head look a bit out of proportion to the body? and what are you feeding them? do they seem quite happy eating and pooing?

They were a bit thin, but looked perportional. Their heads fit the body and all that. They happily eat flake, dried tubeflex, sinking wafers, blanched cucumber and stuff like that

and can you tell us what treatment you are giving for the one with the damaged head and fins? depending on what is actually wrong, melafix might help.

melafix seems to kill stuff in our experiance. I wont let it in the house without very good reason as so many fish are badly effected by it. We have been useing intrepet anti-fungal with the temp around 30 to kill off the white spot. I've tried getting pics of him, but it looks like classic fungus/fin rot

thanks so much!

[Diana]

Ich- a parasite. Fungus and bacteria remedies do not kill Ich. Optimum treatment includes anti-parasite medicine, and plenty of water changes, emphasizing vacuuming. You are removing the Ich that falls to the floor of the tank (hopefully before it reproduces) Raising the temperature can speed up the life cycle of the Ich organism so that it gets killed by the medicine or removed from the tank sooner.

Fungus- rare, but not unknown, especially on damaged (dead) flesh as might happen with a wound, or possibly with fins that might have been burned with high ammonia, or torn in a fight with another fish. Anti-parasite or antibacterial remedies will not kill fungus. Plenty of water changes are the best. Actually research the active ingredients in the medicines you might buy. Some fish medicines are labeled as if they kill 'fungus' but are actually antibacterial meds, because so many 'fungus diseases' are really caused by bacteria.

Fin Rot- most often caused by a bacteria (Flavobacteria columnaris is pretty common, other bacteria can cause it, too) Fungus or parasite remedies do not kill bacteria. (Unless it is really an antibacterial, labeled as if it kills fungus) Antibacterial meds are the best. Keeping the temperature lower is better if it is actually Flex (Flavobacteria columnaris used to be called Flexibacter) as this particular bacteria becomes more active over 76*F. Most fish diseases that are bacterial in origin are caused by gram negative bacteria, but secondary bacteria (sometimes gram positive) can move in on the compromised fish.

For all three problems, or some mixed up combination, I would be doing LOTS of water changes, to keep the population of disease causing organisms out of the water, or at least at the lowest possible population, for the least re-infection possible, and also, water changes to keep the nitrates as low as possible. Yes, water changes themselves can be stressful, but the are ways to do water changes that do not lower the water level in the tank, where you are running the new water in as fast as you are siphoning the old water out. This, to me, seems the least stressful to the fish.
Keep the water temperature optimum for the fish until you know for sure what the problem is. Ich can be killed at any temperature. High or low temperature can be stressful for the fish.

Osmotic shock is a possibility with an injury. The open cells take in more water than a fish with an intact slime coat, and the stressed fish has problems getting rid of the excess water. Raising the total dissolved solids might help. In general, fish that have some sort of stress going on (Fighting parasites or disease of any sort) MIGHT be having some osmosis problems, but I would be reluctant to "do something" unless I saw some direct evidence of this. I simply would not LOWER the TDS for such fish, simply be very careful that each water change either raises the TDS slightly, or maintains it where it was.

[saphphx]

thank you. I emailed all of that to my husband as its his tank.

Thanks

they seem to be doing better today, the fungus seems to be gone but its still open wounds and things, I'm not sure if I should move him on his own to a small hospital tank or what because I dont want to stress him out catching and moving him and then have him be friendless (he's hanging out with the others at the moment)

[helen nightingale]

sorry to hear of your bad experiences with q-tanks and melafix.

i was just wondering, do you test the water for pH and hardness when you transfer fish? i have surprised myself before just how much water can alter in different tanks, when the water that went in was the same.

have you tried the waterlife treatments? they are good

it sounds like your fish are getting proper food. i was wondering if they were thin as they could have worms. in some shops all the loaches look like they have worms, and some shops dont know what to feed them on either. the head can somnetimes look big and the body very skinny. if yours are not right skinny, then it could be it is whatever the problems they have is making then a bit on the thin side

best wishes

[saphphx]

we've set up a QT tank for them, the ph is only a few points off, the tank is 6.8 and the qt tank is 7.2, we climitize them slowly and all that, so hopefully this time it will be fine. We have set up an 90ltr tank with 40ltr in it, filter and heater, bare bottom with a little gravel in one corner. Hopefully they will sort themselves out and get well soon.

[saphphx]

the clown with clamped fins


Clown missing fins

(excuse the pleco poop.)

they are both in the QT tank now. Going good so far.

[tariesindanrie]

ohhh. He looks a great deal like Pop did when he first exhibited CWS symptoms.

Kate