Sad to report

[Doc]

It is with sad news that I have to say that over the last couple of days I have lost several Clown Loach , including my two favourite specimens to what appears to be a particularly rapid and aggressive viral infection combined with whitespot. Autopsy shows nothing wrong with the fish and their internal organs and the whitespot infestation I believe to be secondary to the virus.
All water params are fine and show their normal results with zero nitrite and ammonia , Nitrate measures at 0.5mg/l. Secondary testing with alternative kits confirm the results. TDS is at the moment 120 and is never higher than 150. Water has a pH of 6.8. and Hardness is 7.0°GH. temp is normally 28°C.

The fish infected first showed signs of illness on Sunday night/ Monday morning and had some spots on Monday upon examination. No other significant symptoms jumped up at me.

By Monday night the Loach has deteriorated considerably and started showing erratic and awkward swimming pattern , increased and then decreased breathing and inability to orientate properly. By midnight he had unfortunately passed away.
Yesterday another 2 had died and more fish ill and today showed another Clown Loach dead and my favourite obviously suffering.
I chose to euthanize him as he had lost a lot of weight and couldn't swim or breathe properly.

No other species in the tank are affected nor show any signs of infection or illness and this includes 2 other species of Loach as well as various Cyprinids.

Anyhow , the point of this post is merely for anyone with more knowledge or experience of something similar , in fact just anybody to shed light or insight on this.
HAs anyone come across any specific virus outbreaks in the trade whether Loaches or not. I am assuming the virus has been dormant for a while and something has triggered it and that the whitespot is a secondary infection , either that or the Ich has triggered the virus. Either one one has affected the other and the result is serious and extremely rapid decline in extremely healthy (well they were up until this point) Clowns.

[mickthefish]

Doc, ive had the sameand i know Andy's had a similar experience as you, but this only seemed to occur from fish bought at BAS.
i can tell you for definite that it is not whitespot as we know it, it's far more aggressive than that, and within a day the fish is absolutely mass with these offwhite spots.
andy came to the idea that it's more like a form of velvet or a mutated form of whitespot which the cures do not touch.
the only thing wev'e found that works is interpet No 7.
sorry about your loss mate
mick

[Doc]

I tend not to use meds on Loaches , I usually ramp the heat up to 32°C and add even more aeration , of the meds I do use Interpet No.7 and KB WS3 seem the most effective. I did look at a slice of the white cysyts and they did appear to be Ich rather than Velvet but I haven't ruled it out.
After eliminating all other theories I am led to believe that the problem is most definitely viral and attacks the brain so rapidly that decline and death are inevitable. Just heartwrenching knowing that I can't seem to do anything to help. I have seen Discus go the same way but without the Ich and that has always been viral.
Time will tell how devastating this will be I have lost nearly half my Clown Loach so far. I tend to go for Clowns with unusual patterning as well so it is even more gutting.

The Loaches have been bought from 3 separate shops local to me , one being a Maidenhead Aquatics and the other P@H and the collection built up over the past year.

[mickthefish]

as you say ive seen my wild caught discus go down with the same complaint, but i thought that was due to a micro-worm that works it's way to the brain.?
and then again ive never seen a SA fish with velvet, it seems to be from africa through to asian fish that you see the disease.
ive had a tank with a mix that got velvet yet only the fish from these parts shown signs of being affected, nothing on the SA fish.?

Doc did you see the thread that i did awhile back where something was attacking my rostrata, yet all the other loach sp in the tank were unaffected now that was another frightener that i still don't know what it was but i lost all the rostrata but nothing else.?

mick

[Doc]

It could well be a microworm in the brain , I didn't notice anything when I cut it open but then it could well be in the other hemisphere of brain.
I vaguely recall your Rostrata thread , I'll check through for it and have a recap , it may throw some light on it.
It may well be that I have missed or even completely dismissed something so obvious or trivial that I wouldn't think it would be important which is why I made the post. Whether I get to the bottom of it or not it is immaterial now as the fish are dead or dying and chances are there is no cure or treatment.

Technically the tank is my partners and she is as upset as me.
I get some water samples back from the lab tomorrow so will see what they show up.

[chefkeith]

It would be a breakthough in science if anyone could identify a fish virus.
You can only treat what is known.

That to me looks like a classic case of ich. When the gills get heavily infected, the fish eventually suffocates to death.

[mickthefish]

thats where you'd come unstuck keith, thats the disease that weve been getting for the last 10 yrs at least and no white spot cure will touch it.
the shape and colour are different to normal spot.

mick

[adrea]

Doc,

I am so sorry - how sad...

The spots are so strangely uniform. We had a bunch of clowns pass away due to a bad case of ich over xmas aroud the same side or a bit larger perhaps (hard to tell with the pics) - and while the spots look similar I do not remember them being so uniform (but I guess it could jst be the way they show in the pic). I seem to remember the spots being more concentrated here and there throught the body on the ones we lost, but this looks almost perfectly uniform.

Please post if you get any definate answers as to what this is or if it is some form of super ich.

Once again I am so sorry they were beautiful clowns!

Adrea

[Doc]

I have had the water samples tested and the results show no significant detriment in the water. A few spores and bacteria that aren't a factor and a few that are but have been eliminated as the cause or causes.
I have learnt a lot more than I thought I knew , not just about Ich but other similar diseases , pathogens etc. So much conflicting information and opinion on the subject. Some has been very helpful indeed , both from members on here and PFK and also what I found out using books and the internet. If this had happened 20years ago when I first started keeping fish myself I doubt there would have been the myriad of information there is nowadays.
Thankfully no more fish have died and the fish that are showing symptoms appear no worse and two of them show signs of definite improvement.

I do feel that as the hobby grows that we may encounter more and more cases like this , even experienced hobbyists and experts as bacteria and virus adapt to and overcome the methods and weapons used to counteract and defeat them.
I don't think I will be able to verify it as a virus or other that was the definitive cause of death. Whether Super ICH or not I have never seen anything this aggressive towards healthy fish without some outward sign beforehand. This seemed to be from onset to death within 24-48hours and with no detectable (at least with what I can use to detect) or otherwise trigger.
If it happens again then I will do as much as I can to record as much information so that both myself and others can understand and evaluate it.
If any of the remaining infectees pass away I may send them to Dr Burgess and see if he can shed any light on it.

[Doc]

Sorry Keith only just spotted your post. When I first saw the fish I though Ich and acted accordingly however when I have autopsied the dead fish the gills have shown little sign of damage or infestation. Unless I send a properly preserved corpse to the appropriate people I doubt I will get a definitive answer to this.

[chefkeith]

Doc-I was very wrong about that being ich, like Mick pointed out.

Adrea made a great observations that I didn't notice. The spots are uniform.

A few people here have had a similiar problem with their loaches before. I don't know what it is or what causes it.

Here's a few links with the goosebump problem-

http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=12423
http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=7317

[Emma Turner]

Hi Doc,

I'm really sorry to read of your loss. Did you add any new fish recently? Also, do you run a UV steriliser on the tank?

Hope the remaining loaches get through this.

Best wishes,

Emma

[Doc]

Doc-I was very wrong about that being ich, like Mick pointed out.
Adrea made a great observations that I didn't notice. The spots are uniform.
A few people here have had a similiar problem with their loaches before. I don't know what it is or what causes it.
Here's a few links with the goosebump problem-

http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=12423
http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=7317

Very interesting reading in those two threads. In fact I hadn't even thought of sessile peritrichs as a cause for the spots.. Looking at the fish infected on those threads and the pics of mine then it seems more probable that I have misidentified the culprit on the slides I took. Maybe I was looking for Ich and just assumed that what I had was Ich and nothing else I was being blinkered.

Further reading required.

[Doc]

Hi Doc,

I'm really sorry to read of your loss. Did you add any new fish recently? Also, do you run a UV steriliser on the tank?

Hope the remaining loaches get through this.

Best wishes,

Emma

The first fish to die and the one pictured in the net was the last Loach to be added to the tank , purchased about 2months ago and quarantined. He had been part of a pair in a display tank in a local shop for the last 12months and was very timid. It took him 3 days after settling in to usurp the Alpha loach who was nearly 2" shorter and only about 2/3rd his size. Weighing all the evidence I would say that he is a main contributing factor to this outbreak.

I don't run a UV on the tank but I am really beginning to think I should get one installed. I kept saying I would get one every weekend but never did. Hindsight is a wonderful thing...

[Doc]

Update: Some of the smaller Loaches are still showing signs of ill health but here have been no more deaths that I am aware of. In total I lost 8 Clown Loach and hopefully I can wean the remaining sick ones back to health. Most of the 'nodules' have dissipated now and the fish just look very thin and lethargic. Time will tell.

Thanks to all who helped me figure out what was going on.