Does anyone per chance have it?
Preferably, Protomyzon whiteheadi, but any other species would be ok....
(I'm trying to ID a very strange looking hillstream I saw today....)
TIA
Bottom view of a protomyzon?
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Jim Powers
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I used to have protomyzon sinensis http://www.loaches.com/species_pages/protomyzon_sp.html
While these are not shots from underneath, you can see the characteristic pelvic/pectoral fin separation of these fish.
If the fish you are talking about are from China, there are probably sinensis, since I believe that all other protomyzon are from Borneo.
While these are not shots from underneath, you can see the characteristic pelvic/pectoral fin separation of these fish.
If the fish you are talking about are from China, there are probably sinensis, since I believe that all other protomyzon are from Borneo.
Thanks Jim,
The fish I just saw was a stray with Chenis/Myersi, so it is likely from China.
Unf., I did not take the camera with me, but its head is quite white indeed, much more than shown here:
http://www.loaches.com/species_pages/pr ... headi.html
The rest of the body is gray, very much like most Chenis. I actually thought at first it is a very sick Cheni
, then noticed that the two pairs of fins do not overlap (form two nearly perfect circles if one looks underneath). And it has no Cheni chest pattern---looks more like a lizard hillstream from the bottom. Two parallel lines visible over an almost lizard siluette.
It is probably not a whiteheadi -- the fins are totally clear, but the white head eliminates your sinensis.
The immediate question is if I should run back and get him.....I really don't want to have more single unhappy hillstreams, but he was socializing with Chenis quite nicely. Saw him eating too.
(Incidentally, it is the ugliest loach I've ever seen...so I'm really tempted...)
Donno what to do right now.
PS. whiteheadi is indeed from the northern Borneo (fishbase).
The HK supplier does not carry fish from Indonesia asaik -- I've been checking on another hillstream. Weird.
The fish I just saw was a stray with Chenis/Myersi, so it is likely from China.
Unf., I did not take the camera with me, but its head is quite white indeed, much more than shown here:
http://www.loaches.com/species_pages/pr ... headi.html
The rest of the body is gray, very much like most Chenis. I actually thought at first it is a very sick Cheni
, then noticed that the two pairs of fins do not overlap (form two nearly perfect circles if one looks underneath). And it has no Cheni chest pattern---looks more like a lizard hillstream from the bottom. Two parallel lines visible over an almost lizard siluette.It is probably not a whiteheadi -- the fins are totally clear, but the white head eliminates your sinensis.
The immediate question is if I should run back and get him.....I really don't want to have more single unhappy hillstreams, but he was socializing with Chenis quite nicely. Saw him eating too.
(Incidentally, it is the ugliest loach I've ever seen...so I'm really tempted...)
Donno what to do right now.
PS. whiteheadi is indeed from the northern Borneo (fishbase).
The HK supplier does not carry fish from Indonesia asaik -- I've been checking on another hillstream. Weird.
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Jim Powers
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If it has a white head, I would be VERY reluctant to get it as that is a symptom of the bacterial infection that causes the "patchy" disease.
By the way, lone protomyzon will do fine with other similar hillstreams. They are a bit fiesty and will chase even chenis away, particularly when they get larger. I had one in for some time with some sids and B. rostrata (not what I would usually do) and it was the dominant fish in the tank. It would chase botinaes away at feeding time.
By the way, lone protomyzon will do fine with other similar hillstreams. They are a bit fiesty and will chase even chenis away, particularly when they get larger. I had one in for some time with some sids and B. rostrata (not what I would usually do) and it was the dominant fish in the tank. It would chase botinaes away at feeding time.
Darn. I was hoping you would not say this. This was the reason I did not get him today.Jim Powers wrote:If it has a white head, I would be VERY reluctant to get it as that is a symptom of the bacterial infection that causes the "patchy" disease.
Thinking aloud:
If you are right I'm in deep manure already: he probably infected the Chenis too. None of mine (2nd day on Maracyns) show any patches, neither do any in the store (I'm really paranoid now and rechecked the store fish to see if there are any more surprises waiting...)
The head is VERY white. Chalk color. And it is the entire head.
Q: in your experience -- would a white/infected area be perfectly symmetric? It seems to be in this case, and I was going to recheck this again to be certain.
Very interesting. He certainly was on the active side at about 1". Chasing rostratas is impressive.By the way, lone protomyzon will do fine with other similar hillstreams. They are a bit fiesty and will chase even chenis away, particularly when they get larger. I had one in for some time with some sids and B. rostrata (not what I would usually do) and it was the dominant fish in the tank. It would chase botinaes away at feeding time.
PS. Did you notice how Fishbase calls sinensis? Erromyzon sinensis! -- cute. Possibly has something to do with the Kottelat's paper about the Chinese protomyzons being unrelated to Borneo's:
http://www.pfeil-verlag.de/04biol/pdf/ief15_4_03.pdf
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PS. I'm still curious about this loach, so I did some googling. Found your 2004 picture of the underside, on loachtank. Something does not match here: your picture protomyzon picture looks too similar to my SpA (and I guess your disparis) undersides, but this whiteheaded loach did have the fins as almost perfect circles, it is really halfway between a lizard and a sucker. Maybe your old picture was mislabeled, maybe this loach is not a protomyzon... I don't think I'm brave enough to get him, but I'll *try* to drop by the store with a camera.
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Jim Powers
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I had a schistura that developed a white head like what you discribed. It did survive and is still fat and sassy three years later.
I would just make sure you go ahead and medicate the chenis with the antibiotics for the full ten days to be sure.
In the future, however, I would be more careful when picking fish or you might end up with another mess on your hands.
That pick you ran accross is not mislabeled it is the underside of one of my sinensis prior to it fattening up.
I forgot about that name change to Erromyzon, but wasn't aware of Kottelet's paper stating the Borneo species were unrelated to the Chinese.
Very interesting.
I would just make sure you go ahead and medicate the chenis with the antibiotics for the full ten days to be sure.
In the future, however, I would be more careful when picking fish or you might end up with another mess on your hands.
That pick you ran accross is not mislabeled it is the underside of one of my sinensis prior to it fattening up.
I forgot about that name change to Erromyzon, but wasn't aware of Kottelet's paper stating the Borneo species were unrelated to the Chinese.
Very interesting.
Ten days it will be (just put in the day 3 dosage)
I'm doing my best trying to avoid the mess...I checked almost every fish in the shipment last Sun and then Mon again, before getting any for myself, but somehow missed this protomyzon. (I suspect his white head was not visible on a light background), and I'm rechecking every fish here and the sit. at the store for trouble signs. So far, nothing that looks like a bacterial infection. (I do see a couple of other warning signs: a possibility of ich and the behavior of one of the SpA's is not normal, but not anything like a bacterial infection so far)
(Incidentally, that protomyzon went through 5 day treatment of maracyns at the store -- part of their new quarantine procedure.).
I'll try to get his photos and maybe the full Kottelat's paper (the link I gave you is only the first page...but maybe I can retrieve the full pdf from the office).
(I'm kind of interested in this fish -- it is a "missing link" between the suckers and the lizards, so I'll do more research on it.).
I'm doing my best trying to avoid the mess...I checked almost every fish in the shipment last Sun and then Mon again, before getting any for myself, but somehow missed this protomyzon. (I suspect his white head was not visible on a light background), and I'm rechecking every fish here and the sit. at the store for trouble signs. So far, nothing that looks like a bacterial infection. (I do see a couple of other warning signs: a possibility of ich and the behavior of one of the SpA's is not normal, but not anything like a bacterial infection so far)
(Incidentally, that protomyzon went through 5 day treatment of maracyns at the store -- part of their new quarantine procedure.).
I'll try to get his photos and maybe the full Kottelat's paper (the link I gave you is only the first page...but maybe I can retrieve the full pdf from the office).
which probably means that Kottelat was right about different genus and makes this a bit more interesting; whatever this fish is it is not a close relative of sinensis. The other googled item is that whiteheadi also is found in Malaysia --- on the continent, so maybe it could reach HK after all.That pick you ran accross is not mislabeled it is the underside of one of my sinensis prior to it fattening up.
(I'm kind of interested in this fish -- it is a "missing link" between the suckers and the lizards, so I'll do more research on it.).
Anyway, this is how the loach looks like. Sorry for the low quality, it is hard to make pics at the store.
The colors are different from what I saw yesterday (diff location in the tank?). Now he looks much more like whiteheadi. Don't think that he is sick in any way, except for possibly mentally. Light spots on the body shown in a couple of pictures are not real (dirty glass).
You can see that he was busy eating a dead cheni; other chenis did not participate in the feast.
Notice that the underside view shows two almost perfect circles (fins) and is quite different from yours.
The colors are different from what I saw yesterday (diff location in the tank?). Now he looks much more like whiteheadi. Don't think that he is sick in any way, except for possibly mentally. Light spots on the body shown in a couple of pictures are not real (dirty glass).
You can see that he was busy eating a dead cheni; other chenis did not participate in the feast.
Notice that the underside view shows two almost perfect circles (fins) and is quite different from yours.
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Bagrus dude
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Jim Powers
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Actually, it looks like the same species (Erromyzon sinensis,formerly P. sinensis) that I had. Does it have large barbels?
It also looks sick. I would definately avoid putting that fish in one of my tanks. It may be curable, but I wouldn't risk it.
That color loss is being caused by something. If the color comes back at the store, maybe I would consider it after quarentine and antibiotic treatment, but not as is.
Remember, too, it is eating a dead cheni that might, itself, be loaded with pathogens.
It also looks sick. I would definately avoid putting that fish in one of my tanks. It may be curable, but I wouldn't risk it.
That color loss is being caused by something. If the color comes back at the store, maybe I would consider it after quarentine and antibiotic treatment, but not as is.
Remember, too, it is eating a dead cheni that might, itself, be loaded with pathogens.
It has barbels I can see, but they are small (the fish itself is about 1in).
Why are you rejecting the possibility that whiteheadi simply means white head? The guy on the LOL page,
http://www.loaches.com/species_pages/pr ... headi.html
has a lighter head too (but, granted, not to this degree). Notice that the species was described first by one Vaillant, not by a Whitehead.
In all cases, he is not coming anywhere close to my tanks now, I'm not risking the chenis here. Since I feel some sympathy both for him and for the remaining store chenis, I made sure that the store moved him to another tank, where there should be no dead fish for him to eat, and put a hold on him....until "he recovers". I will take a look at him in a few days.---I'm very curious but not suicidal.
As for eating dead fish, you are of course absolutely right, but I cannot get them to understand that not removing dead fish asap leads to more dead fish....or be just a bit more curious why fish dies at all after a few days at the store.
Why are you rejecting the possibility that whiteheadi simply means white head? The guy on the LOL page,
http://www.loaches.com/species_pages/pr ... headi.html
has a lighter head too (but, granted, not to this degree). Notice that the species was described first by one Vaillant, not by a Whitehead.
In all cases, he is not coming anywhere close to my tanks now, I'm not risking the chenis here. Since I feel some sympathy both for him and for the remaining store chenis, I made sure that the store moved him to another tank, where there should be no dead fish for him to eat, and put a hold on him....until "he recovers". I will take a look at him in a few days.---I'm very curious but not suicidal.
As for eating dead fish, you are of course absolutely right, but I cannot get them to understand that not removing dead fish asap leads to more dead fish....or be just a bit more curious why fish dies at all after a few days at the store.
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Jim Powers
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Bagrus dude
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