Ich infestation ?, help needed

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Mad Duff
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Ich infestation ?, help needed

Post by Mad Duff » Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:58 am

I went away for a week last week and all was fine in the new 7ft tank, my parents came in and fed the fish every other day and all was fine.

They fed fish as normal last Thursday and everything seemed ok anyway the came on Saturday and noticed the Clowns didn't look to happy, anyway I came home from Holiday 2 days early and when I first looked into the tank the Clowns were swimming with dorsals clamped down and a couple of Rasboras had a couple of white spots visible on them.

I dosed with Protozin and started to raise the temperature, first thing Sunday morning I carried out a 50% water change and re-dosed with Protozin, I only gave a half dose but gave another half dose 12 hours later.

The temperature has been at 88 since then I have added extra aeration and lowered the water level but this just isn't clearing at all.

I took these pictures this morning:
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Porthole Rasbora which seems to be the worst affected Rasbora
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note one of the other two Porthole Rasboras in the background which is clear of any spots as is the 3rd fish
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Silver shark
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Clowns
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The ragged fins have literally appeared over night.

I have continued dosing with Protozin and have carried out 2 more 50% water changes since Sunday but this just seems to be getting worse.

I have now started losing fish :cry: , Ive lost a kissing gourami, male bleeding heart tetra, one of my gold nuggets has gone really pale and doesn't look good at all and it looks like my spotted dora is about dead :cry:

No new fish have been added to this tank apart from fish that were already in my tanks, all filters were mature before they went into the tank and I used Bactinets just to be certain of no problems.

This one has got me stumped :?
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Tinman
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Post by Tinman » Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:00 am

Stay with it and you will prevail. All or most fish have ich or other parisites and they will come out in bloom at times of stress like your move.I have had Clowns do this after being fine for several years then moving to a new tank.Such bad luck it did this when you were away .All or most of your fish likely will have this on the gills as opposed to all over like the one's that are worse off. The tail looks bio,not parasite though. Good Luck

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Post by wasserscheu » Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:18 am

Hi Mark, really sorry, o boy this is quite sad - "happens in the best families" Germans say. However, live goes on, and it´s still a dream tank set up, even if it may take a little work now.
When I started my tank, similar things occured, got water and filtermaterial from a healthy tank. ... put in some fish and the cat had ich the very next day...
Ich. and "others" may be present most of the times...with ich. I don´t quite understand, as they are parameciums and need food (fishskin) within 70 hours, or they dye. I´m probably not the right person to consult you, as you have more experience... I made sure, medication covers the substrate, the swarmer (right word?) come from the substrate. Spread the fish to neutral tanks?

Keeping my fingers crossed.
Wolfram

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Emma Turner
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Post by Emma Turner » Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:36 am

Oh no, so sorry to hear this MD. :cry: I would recommend that you keep doing the 2 x daily half doses of Protozin combined with the higher temp/extra aeration. You should notice improvement after 4 or 5 days. Extra vacuuming of the gravel should make a noticeable difference too - this has been recommended by the experts in fairly recent discussions of a more virulent strain of whitespot.

Also, I would recommend that you think about adding a UV steriliser to this tank, especially as your fish collection is building up nicely now.

Good luck with this,

Emma
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Post by LoachOrgy » Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:08 am

Sorry to hear, hope your fish make it through! Be strong!
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Mad Duff
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Post by Mad Duff » Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:24 am

Thanks for all the help :)

I was already thinking about a UV Emma but I think it is a must buy now.

I have just had to pop out for a couple of hours and while I was out I got some Melafix so that I could at least try and stop anything bacterial while I am doseing with the Protozin.

I have just got home and 4 of my Clowns have died including the biggest one at just over 8" :cry: :cry:

I have had white spot outbreaks before but nothing like this :evil:
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ckk125
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Post by ckk125 » Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:55 am

use the heat method...90 and above...it works
Chen

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Mad Duff
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Post by Mad Duff » Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:13 pm

ckk125 wrote:use the heat method...90 and above...it works
I have had the tank sat at 88 to 90 for 4 days and the fish are struggling to much, after losing the clowns I have let the temperature come down slightly to 85 and they do seem slightly happier although still struggling a bit.

I have the tank only 2/3 filled and the two power heads going at full pelt along with both spray bars splashing the surface and an air pump off the Koi pond running so hopefully there will be enough oxygen in the water.

Fingers crossed :(
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Graeme Robson
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Post by Graeme Robson » Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:20 pm

Oh man! This stinks! :(

Hang in there old chap! So sorry to hear this. :(
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Post by shari2 » Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:26 pm

So sorry to hear this Mark! Below is a little interesting information from
Dr. Erik L. Johnson, Veterinarian and Fish Health Specialist. 2/29/96:
Freshwater Ich (Ichthyophthirius multifilis) is a ciliated protozoan that encysts under the epidermis of the fish; and, in its encysted condition, causes small white spots all over the fishes body and fins. In some cases, Ich spots may be present, but will not be visible. You may still see them under the scope, or you may see them exclusively on the gills. This is how infected fish may get into a tank without being detected, even if quarantined for a period of time. Asymptomatic carriers can sustain a population of Ich in a tank or pond for an indefinite period. Sometimes an owner will purchase a new fish who, being immunologically naive to Ich, will contract the condition immediately upon introduction to an 'endemic' (already infected but asymptomatic) group of fish. If a fish contracts Ich, and survives without treatment, they have shown strong immunity to re-infection, indicating that the potential for a vaccine exists, and is being worked on at University of Georgia and other institutions...

Ich rapidly kills smaller tropicals and goldfish, while often sparing the larger varieties (fish such as Oscars and Koi). Damage to the gills is the primary way it kills, but damage to the skin with secondary bacterial infection may also figure prominently.
Its life cycle is roughly 2-5 days, but can be longer (5+ weeks!) if the water is cool, much shorter if the water is warmer. There is the old rumor that warm water eradicates it. This is substantially true when temperatures exceed 85 degrees, however; there are strains coming out of Florida and detailed by researchers at University of Florida that can survive and thrive up to NINETY degrees or more! Recall that many of our bread and butter species of tropicals come from Florida, and so may harbor this heat tolerant strain...

Interestingly, some research at Oklahoma has revealed a strain of Ich that does not have to leave the fish and whose Ich packet (trophozoite) remains under the epidermis (safe from medications) and the tomites swarm out under the epidermis. The lesions look much like Carp Pox lesions, being large, flattened, and waxy looking. This parasite is harder to clear because it is the free swimming tomite that we can kill with medicaments.

Prevention is attended at the wholesale level by the maintenance of a 0.3% salt solution which crenates (kills) the emerging tomites. We do not recommend that you as a hobbyist maintain this salt level all the time because live plants can be killed by this, and all species of fish are NOT universally tolerant of this. Still, many have found that salt is a very effective annihilator of Ich infections if normal precautions are observed.
Considering you have high temp already the reproductive cycle of the parasite is likely very fast and the parasite is proliferating rapidly.

You mentioned that some fish are asymptomatic. When you had ich before is it possible that any of those fish were 'cured?' If so, they may have an immunity that the other fish do not.

Melafix has antibacterial 'properties', but is not an effective antibiotic. For your clown that developed the serious fin rot overnight I think you are looking at a real bacterial infection. Did this clown have spots on the tail that you had noticed previously? Given the rapid loss of fish after you noticed the fin issue, I think you should consider a concurrent antibacterial treatment.

It seems you must have some 'carriers' in your fish population. It doesn't just 'appear' from nowhere, though it may seem so, especially in your case.
....
I think you are wise to have lowered the temp. If you have a heat resistant strain the higher temp only makes them reproduce more rapidly, stresses the fish more, and is ineffective in the long run, anyway.

btw...salt at 1 tsp/5 gallons can be very effective at making your fish more comfortable, at least in this serious proliferation stage. I'd consider using it in this case for several days and then lowering the concentration via water changes once you begin to see some improvement. Daily wc's and gravel vacs are a must for the next several days.

Geeze, I am sorry to hear this. I know what it's like to lose large clowns. :cry:
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chefkeith
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Post by chefkeith » Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:46 pm

I am bummed to hear this. I hope you get this cleared up asap. I agree with Shari about the salt. I think it can help alot, but it needs to added slowly and removed even slowler.

I'm away on vacation right now, and hope my fish will be fine until I get back on Monday. The day before I left, there was a 4 hour power outage. So I'm worried to death about something happening while I'm away.
Good luck.

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shari2
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Post by shari2 » Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:53 pm

OH!
if you do decide to use salt be sure to dissolve it ahead of time in dechlorinated fresh water. (I wouldn't use tank water...)
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Post by Tinman » Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:55 pm

When You UV the biggest is best 36 watt turbo twist .It will kill for you now during this cycle of infection and in the future. Twist for more time under the light so it lets you move enough water to really work as a killer as opposed to just keeping up.

I agree with the salt at this point.

Great quote Shari. In the middle it the statement is
but damage to the skin with secondary bacterial infection may also figure prominently
This could indicate symptom fin damage on the clown as possible longer time infected this fish and secondary not primary fin rot.

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Mad Duff
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Post by Mad Duff » Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:02 am

Thankyou for all the replies and info, much appreaciated :)

The fish were looking really bad last night so rather than continuing with Protozin I decided to put a full dose of Myxazin in which can be used for whitespot and bacterial infections, I honestly thought I would be pulling a lot of fish out dead this morning because they looked horrendous last night but I have lost another 3 of the smallest clowns an 8" Gold nugget and the remainder look a little better the fins on the silver sharks and Zebra Barbs are certainly not as red as they were last night and a couple of fish that were not feeding yesterday and I thought were certain to be dead this morning are swimming fine and feeding.

I will get some salt and give that a go but hopefully the Myxazin may well have just turned things back in my favour fingers crossed.
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Mad Duff
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Post by Mad Duff » Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:05 am

Tinman wrote:When You UV the biggest is best 36 watt turbo twist .It will kill for you now during this cycle of infection and in the future. Twist for more time under the light so it lets you move enough water to really work as a killer as opposed to just keeping up.
That is the type of UV I have looked at, it is the same type that I already have on my pond, the fact that the water passes round and round the light is the reason I bought them so that will be the type that go on the &ft tank and maybe others as well :)
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14 loach species bred, which will be next?

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