Need some stocking advice for my second loach tank

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MultipleTankSyndrome
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:07 am
Location: Loachaholica

Re: Need some stocking advice for my second loach tank

Post by MultipleTankSyndrome » Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:58 pm

Thanks Bas. That's good to know for both my current planted tank and any future plan changes.
473 liter (may be upgraded to large footprint 681) - black kuhli+clown loaches
110 liter - green neon+cardinal tetras, chain loaches
473 liter (planned) - Burmese+yoyo+zebra+striped kuhli loaches, roseline sharks, Odessa barbs, pink tail chalceus

NancyD
Posts: 1553
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:17 pm
Location: SF bay area,US

Re: Need some stocking advice for my second loach tank

Post by NancyD » Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:05 am

I know my clowns & other loaches loved grazing on the surfaces of plants for algae & auf wuchs. I would not consider keeping clown loaches in a plantless tank even though they may punch holes in them sometimes...usually without enough veggies offered...If you don't want to keep plants, that's ok...but they do like veggies...in many forms.

You're basing your data on only a couple keepers here. Yes, Emma & Martin had famous wonderful clown tanks...but so have many others. Both Emma & Martin had disastrous tank "melt downs" after some time, it can happen...even in the best kept tanks.

It's like many online searches, you get what you look for... & you have. I'm not saying they're wrong but there are other successful ways.

If you want to justify what you've already decided is "best" I think you can find them...like overstocking. lack of oxygenation, etc...Good luck with whatever you decide to try, I hope it will work for you
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MultipleTankSyndrome
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:07 am
Location: Loachaholica

Re: Need some stocking advice for my second loach tank

Post by MultipleTankSyndrome » Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:02 am

Thank you for the good wishes Nancy. I suppose a good takeaway is that we all can have quite different standards, which is fine as long as they all work.

By the way, since you mentioned your clown loaches, here's hoping you can get some more in the future and have them do well. I remember hearing you had to rehome yours several times, so hopefully you'll get some you can keep.
473 liter (may be upgraded to large footprint 681) - black kuhli+clown loaches
110 liter - green neon+cardinal tetras, chain loaches
473 liter (planned) - Burmese+yoyo+zebra+striped kuhli loaches, roseline sharks, Odessa barbs, pink tail chalceus

NancyD
Posts: 1553
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:17 pm
Location: SF bay area,US

Re: Need some stocking advice for my second loach tank

Post by NancyD » Thu Apr 28, 2022 9:58 pm

Thanks for the clown wishes but I'm in my 60s. I'm not sure I'll live long enough or not have to move again (sniff). Redshark has 25+ year old clowns & counting. I have a friend in his 70s with big clowns, he has some concerns about what to do eventually but is thinking about their future...& his...

It was heartbreaking to have to rehome them twice due to long moves. It was difficult to find a suitable home for 6-8 inch fish & of course they grow larger...Many loaches live a long time...but smaller species are easier to rehome if needed...& breeding is a possibility for many...but not clowns for us hobbyists...

Have you come across chef keith's connected tanks? I don't know if his pics are still here but worth a search. In addition to large Marge, someone in AUS had Basil, Sybil et al.

But just to restate, almost all had some kind dire tank catastrophe eventually. Even the best set up can have power outages, filter failures & other bad things happen. With overstocked (or even just "well stocked") tanks, there isn't as much "wiggle room". My "understocked" planted tanks & fish in them have survived a few issues so far...(knock wood). That's not to say I never lose fish for whatever reason but very few big disasters anymore. Mostly it's the slow demise of old dither fish, they tend to live shorter lives...& waiting for the last to die so I can try something else isn't very fun.

Part of it lately is not being happy/able to shop for new fish due to Covid even online or through my club. Life on hold...
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MultipleTankSyndrome
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:07 am
Location: Loachaholica

Re: Need some stocking advice for my second loach tank

Post by MultipleTankSyndrome » Fri Apr 29, 2022 11:16 am

All that stuff on the clowns, age, etc, is just....wow. Really gives one something to think about. Sorry to hear it was so heartbreaking, and that your age is a prohibitive factor.

I have heard of cheifkeith's water bridge tanks, yes. Never seen pictures but they did have me seriously considering setting up this tank next to my 2nd 473 liter and making a water bridge before I realized the space constraint.
And I haven't heard of those clowns, but I have heard of Albert the 17 year old who got killed by a heatwave. Quite sad.

Thanks for restating, I think it gives some perspective on the pros and cons of these different setups. To restate my part, I'm not planning on overstocking, just stocking well with no overstocking to ensure plenty of company for the schoolers while still having enough space.
I'm also looking into generators for my tanks independently of this discussion, which takes care of power outages.

Granted, there is more wiggle room in a less stocked planted tank in the event of an equipment failure, but it is more prone to them than a well-stocked unplanted tank because of the plants (in the style of what happened to Martin). Taking care of the power outages with a generator, they both have their pros and cons, and for me the well-stocked unplanted tank is a better choice for the previous mentioned reasons.
But I'm glad to hear your less stocked planted tanks are doing better.

Best wishes, I think this discussion was a good way of outlining the different ways to stock a tank and the pros and cons of each way.
473 liter (may be upgraded to large footprint 681) - black kuhli+clown loaches
110 liter - green neon+cardinal tetras, chain loaches
473 liter (planned) - Burmese+yoyo+zebra+striped kuhli loaches, roseline sharks, Odessa barbs, pink tail chalceus

MultipleTankSyndrome
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:07 am
Location: Loachaholica

Re: Need some stocking advice for my second loach tank

Post by MultipleTankSyndrome » Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:29 pm

Got some more questions, not on stocking but on flow.
I was originally planning to have a Sicce XStream 8000 and a Sicce Voyager 4 running at the top of the water column, side by side, to provide a flowing top area for the sharks, barbs, and Botia*, but a calm bottom for the kuhli loaches and for everything else to rest. But after seeing Martin Thoene's setup where his powerheads were actually in the middle of the water column, I'm wondering if maybe just the top isn't going to be enough flowing area and I should get more Sicce XStream/Voyagers to have both the top and middle flowing?
Or am I overestimating just how much flow is needed?

*Some may have noticed I didn't list the chalceus. There's been a plan change, it will go with the clown loaches and yoyo loaches instead of in this tank.
473 liter (may be upgraded to large footprint 681) - black kuhli+clown loaches
110 liter - green neon+cardinal tetras, chain loaches
473 liter (planned) - Burmese+yoyo+zebra+striped kuhli loaches, roseline sharks, Odessa barbs, pink tail chalceus

NancyD
Posts: 1553
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:17 pm
Location: SF bay area,US

Re: Need some stocking advice for my second loach tank

Post by NancyD » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:21 am

I don't know either of your powerheads. In my 4ft sewellia tank I have 2 Aqua Clear 70s HOBs (300 gph) & a maxijet 1200/liter PH ~4 inches above the substrate. I know we're talking in different measurements & tank dimensions. I also used this or similar in a 4ft histrionica tank...but again, my tanks are (or were) much more lightly stocked & smaller than you planned tanks. You want the water surface to "roil" (move vigorously). That will help aerate the water, loaches love oxygenation.

I'm glad you decided to skip the chalceus, that will make stocking easier I think.

So, you want end to end flow with a filter intake (or better 2 intakes) to stir up the poo into the intakes. I like coarse prefilter sponges to catch the big bits before they clog filter media. They are quick to clean every week during water changes & mean you don't have to clean the filters as often. On your big tanks I would go with 2 large canister filters. (haven't I said all this before?) You'll need to see where to place the intakes for optimum flow & filtration, all tanks can be different with decor etc. You can have a "jet" filter return or a "spraybar"; most loaches will prefer the jet (almost like a powerhead) but a spraybar may help circulate the poo into the prefilters better. You'll have to play around to see what works best for your fish & filters. There really isn't 1 "right" answer, there's a learning curve that may change as you fish grow.
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MultipleTankSyndrome
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:07 am
Location: Loachaholica

Re: Need some stocking advice for my second loach tank

Post by MultipleTankSyndrome » Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:25 am

The Sicce pumps are the powerhead substitutes. The only sufficiently large powerheads I have found like Aquaclear have to be hooked to the tank rim (which they can't, the lid will have to go on there), whereas the Sicce pumps don't - they have a built in double magnet system allowing them to be stuck to the glass inside the tank. They also have a 360 degree rotation, which comes in handy to get a range of flow.
Output of a Voyager 4 and XStream 8000 comes out to 16000 l/hr (they are 8000 l/hr each). Although, it's evenly split between a thin+fast flow from the Voyager and a wider, slower flow from the XStream.

I can do some backcalculating from that data. If I remember correctly, you had 7 golden zebra loaches in that tank, which was a 1.22m x 31cm footprint. The total of 18 zebra and Burmese loaches in this tank's 1.83m x 47cm footprint would overall make for a pretty similar amount of Botia relative to that footprint (even though my tank has more Botia for its footprint, the smaller size of zebras compared to golden zebras likely cancels this out).
And how many roseline sharks did you have? Since this tank will have 9 instead of something like 18, it's possible it will actually have less roseline sharks compared to the footprint, therefore 'understocking' my tank compared to yours in their case.

Your powerhead was 1200 l/hr, so it looks like the total 16000 l/hr of the Sicce pumps will provide plenty where they are. And yes, a good surface rippling effect is something I was also very determined to have, given the high oxygen requirements of the chosen fish - here is what the XStream without the Voyager does.
https://i.imgur.com/weCgB1d.jpg
My concern is whether having that flow at the top alone is going to be sufficient for the flow (not oxygen) requirements of the Botia, or whether I should also have some closer to the bottom (since they are primarily bottom fish) like you and Martin did.

Filtration is not going to be including any canisters. It will have 2 Aquaclear 70's (1135 l/hr each) and 2 Aqueon 70's (1514 l/hr each), with the 110 not being an option because of not enough space behind the tank.
I have used both of the above on the existing loach tanks and found them very effective at filtering up poop and such, while I have never used canisters and would prefer to keep it that way for the reasons here: https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/foru ... st-8084084

Prefilters might well be good to use, though. I'll experiment with some on the existing loach tanks to see just what configuration could work best for here, and as you mention maybe change it up as the fish grow.

Thanks for everything and especially what you did! Very good for the backcalculating.
473 liter (may be upgraded to large footprint 681) - black kuhli+clown loaches
110 liter - green neon+cardinal tetras, chain loaches
473 liter (planned) - Burmese+yoyo+zebra+striped kuhli loaches, roseline sharks, Odessa barbs, pink tail chalceus

NancyD
Posts: 1553
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:17 pm
Location: SF bay area,US

Re: Need some stocking advice for my second loach tank

Post by NancyD » Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:46 pm

Every tank can be very different. You need to play around with flow & filtration to see what works for your tank, filtration & fish...& that can change as fish grow. There is no "right" answer, but you can make things better for your particular tank...Good luck & let us know what you decide
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