HELP WITH ICH! I'M DESPERATE!!!!

[Calypso mermaid]

Okay, I read the sticky and I've posted here before......I originally had a problem with a tiny, little sick loach that I successfully treated from advice from this board.....however, in my effort to treat the fish, I broke my heater on the last day of treatment and developed ick.
None of the other fishes in the tank show symptoms except for the loaches. I treated with Maracide first at a lower dose as suggested because they are loaches and when that didn't work, I did the full dose and raised the temp. Everything seemed fine and they were had no symptoms by day 3 of the full dose (a week after the cycle of half doses) and so I finished the treatment on day five. I did a huge water changed and added the carbon back.
I left the tank alone for a day and a half to recover, and the day before yesterday I was shocked to see my little guy swim up to me covered head to tail in ick with a scab on his side and red gills! Shocked I could only grab the nearest product.....Jungle "Ick Clear" tank buddies.....which again, says to dose the tank at a 1/2 dose. I also read the directions on my melafix and pimafix and saw that it is safe for loaches, but just to be on the safe side, but very small measured doses into the tank. Since this is a different medications that says it already contains an ingredient to prevent infection, I didn't want to add another antibiotic, but when I saw the sore on the little guys side, it really scared me and the small dose did seem to help the other fish. When I talked to a guy at the fish store, he said an extra slime coat wouldn't be so bad in dealing with these parasites, so I don't know if the stuff is helping or hurting?
Sadly, the ick killed my little guy.....and now my biggest and the second smallest look aweful. The have ick all over, along with a whitish slime coat and are either frantically scratching on stuff or laying on the bottom. My second smallest also is looking skinny now, has a sore on her side and her gills are red like the smallest were just before he died. Only my dominant loach seems half way normal....but even she's got an excessive slime coat and scratching all over. How can they go from chubby and happy to sickly and even skinny so fast?
I don't understand what is going on? Why has it been so hard to clear the ick? I feel like all these toxic medications will kill my fish, if the ick doesn't and they don't appear to have any effect on the ick at all. Every day I look in the tank, the loaches all have ich, despite the medications!!! Now I am afraid about what all these drugs that are not even helping my loaches are doing to my poor Pleco and rainbow fish?! I mean if they cause cancer and he's stuck in there with them, but can live 20 years am I taking 17 off his life? The others don't seem to have any symptoms of ick, but now I feel like they are starting to show stress from all the drugs......but if I stop dosing the tank, I'm afraid they will all just develop ick overnight and drop over dead like my little guy I worked so hard to save did......HELP!!!!! WHAT CAN i DO?
And no I'm not just turning the heat up, because that just isn't reliable enough........the heater doesn't heat the tank to what the heater is turned to because it's cold in here.....so to get 86 degrees, I have to set the heater to 89-90. If it gets warm overnight or when I'm out and I'm not around to turn the heater off, I'll cook my little fishies. Plus, I already did the heat thing with treatment last time, and I'm wondering if I just produced tons of eggs and that's why the ich came back with a vengence. I read the sticky, but what I really need to understand is HOW LONG CAN ICK GO ON? What's a worst case scenario and how do you deal with it without stressing everything else in the tank? HELP! HELP! HELP! BEFORE EVERYONE DIES.

[mistergreen]

sorry to hear about the ich. It's weird that it came back like that... my fish haven't had ich in years.. knock on wood...

don't worry about the thermometer..if it's the right wattage for the gallons, you're fine... i think it's 5 watts / gallon.

if you're uncomfortable with 86F, 82F-86F is fine. The high temp forces the ich to go through its life cycle faster.

and consider adding aquarium salt with the ich meds. 1 tablespoon/5-10 gallons. The salt interupts the ich a little and helps with the injuries.

ps... i remember using the jungle meds... If I remember right, it did nothing. :/
and i know it has been said that salt is bad for loaches but I think a tablespoon / 10 gallons is fine but what do i know. I've never taken care of ich on a loach.

[shari2]

Ok Calypso,
first try to stay calm.

The reason the ich came back is because you did not treat long enough after the spots disappeared to kill off the parasite during the stage of the life cycle that your med will work.

What happened is that at the height of your first infection the the encysted Troponts (the white dots on your fish) burst, releasing hundreds of Tomonts. The cysts left behind open wounds on the sides of your fish. They became susceptible to infection. When those tomonts (that were incubating in the substrate) hatched into Theronts seeking a host (your fish) they were killed off by the meds (hopefully-unless you are dealing with a resistant strain of ich).

Meanwhile, when the rest of those spots disappeared, and you thought the fish was cured, they were actually in the substrate waiting to hatch which takes a day or more, depending on temperature. You stopped treating because you saw no more spots, removed the med with water changes and carbon, so when they hatched (and there were LOTS of them) they were free to go and re-infect your fish.

You have to continue to treat ich for at least a week (some say less, but I say better safe than dealing with what you are right now) after ALL spots are gone.

First things first.
What temp is the tank?
What size is the tank?
Did you increase aeration? Either by lowering the water level for splash, or adding an airstone?

Second.
Melafix is safe to use with loaches. However, Melafix is not a strong antibiotic. It only has antibacterial properties. If you have a full blown infection going in your fish, Melafix won't clear it. I've found from personal experience that Pimafix they DO NOT LIKE. I'd discontinue the Pimafix immediately.

Third.
Since your first round with this strain of ich has already been exposed to the med you're using I'd do a serious water vacuuming (gets rid of lots of Tomonts in the substrate) and start again with a different medication. If your Jungle 'buddies' tabs had praziquantel; metronidazole; and acriflavine--switch to a different med.
Quick Cure and Rid Ich have malachite green and formalin (formaldehyde). Use them at half dose for loaches. Make sure the medication is not past its expiration date. Be careful not to get it on your skin, it is a dangerous med. Do NOT overdose.


Treatment schedule: remove carbon!

Day One:
Gravel vac first.
Treat the tank. Leave out the lights. Increase aeration since ich damages the gills badly and they will need the extra oxygen.

Day 2-4:
DON'T treat.
Leave the medication in the water, lights out, heater on.

Day 5:
Gravel vac really well, removing about 50% of the water. Replace with clean, same temp, dechorinated water.
Treat the tank.
Keep the lights off, airstone bubbling, and heater on.

Day 6-8:
DON'T treat. Leave med in the water--even if you see NO spots.

Day 9:
Gravel vac again. 50% water change, air and temp going, lights out.
Treat again. Even if you see NO spots and things are looking good.

Day 10-12:
Don't treat. Lights off, air on, temp still warm.

Day 13:
Vac, and treat again. Same as previous 3 times.

Day 14-16:
Leave med in water, spots should be gone by now.

At end of treatment do a really good gravel vac/water change, add back the carbon and do frequent smaller water changes regularly.

You need to treat for at least 2 weeks to insure ALL the parasites are gone. Especially the invisible stages.

Many people recommend adding salt during treatment. You'll have to decide on that for yourself. It's a passionate issue that I don't want to get involved in here.

For more info, read Peter's Ich Notes which is a user friendly page on ich that answers alot of questions.

Hope it's not too late for your guys. Good luck.

[brett_fishman]

The reason the ich came back is because you did not treat long enough after the spots disappeared

yes, i treated my tank for FIVE DAYS after the spots went away...theye is still a chance than the parasites were just floating in the tank trying to find the fish...

-brett.

[mistergreen]

do you guys know if a tank stays fishless, would the ich & ich cyst die off eventually?
or does the cyst stay dormant indefinitely?

if they do die off eventally, a cure might be to move the fish out to a hospital tank and treat them there.

[brett_fishman]

mr. green,
i think that the ick parasite dies if it cant find a host fish within 72 hours of 'release'...

-brett.

[mistergreen]

hmmmm.. if that's the case, why don't people recommend removing all fish from the infected tank and treat them somewhere else? :/

strange

that sounds like the easiest solution if you have another tank.

[Calypso mermaid]

Okay, my tank is 30 gallons and the temp is between 82-84 degrees. Initially with my little skinny loach, the tank was treated with Maracyn and Maracyn two.
Then with the first flair up of Ick.....I used MARACIDE with an active ingredient of MALACHITE GREEN and CHITOSAN.
Then after over a week of treatment when I thought it was all gone, I did a huge water change and put the carbon back in. I want to mention that I vacuum the gravel after EVERY water change........my Pleco almost doubles in size daily and I'm pretty sure is a oober poop machine.
Since I found the Ick a few days ago, I've been following the directions on the package of doing a 25-30% water change daily before adding more meds. The active ingredient in my Jungle brand "Ick Clear" tank buddies is VICTORIA GREEN and ACRIFLAVINE. The Jungle brand claims to prevent against infection on the package. There hasn't been a carbon in the tank throughout any ick treatment.
The first few days I followed the lower dosage of 1/2 the dose recommended for loaches on the package,(it's normally 1 tab per 10 gallons of water,) and so I added 1.5 tabs for my 30 gallon tank. Last night after I freaked, I actually increased the dosage past the directions to 2 tabs for my 30 gallons and am doing small doses of Melafix.
Today, suprisingly, they look a tiny bit better. However, my biggest loach looks very slimy with whitish stuff all over him. I can't tell what's leftover Ick or what's fungus. He looks bumpy and grey. I tried the Pimafix two days ago because when I treated my [i]goldfish [/i]with Maracyn 2, he started to get Fungus (I know that sometimes people and mammals on antibiotics get this side effect too,) and the Pimafix really cleared this up quickly.
Here are my questions, with all this stuff in the water, what medication can I possibly switch to? WHY is the Pimafix bad? It says on the label specifically that it's safe for clown loaches and I can just do a small dose to be safe. If there is already an antibiotic in the Jungle tabs, I am hesitant to add another, that's why I used the Melafix. I feel like I have to be a chemist and I'm wondering if this is actually Ich or something else like velvet disease, but don't know what to look for and don't want to start dumping more in the tank....what should I do? The Maracide says it treats Velvet, ect too but can I switch back to that now? I do always wear gloves when I do water changes, but have to ask again.....if this is horribly toxic to human beings, what's it going to do to my poor Pleco or other long living fish down the road? And last, why should I keep the lights off? They come out in the AM when I turn the lights on and become active, seeking attention.

[Hell Fire]

Because when the white dots hatch/burst the parasites are released into the water etc and stick on thing and goes through the whole prosess again. Its only killable in the free swimming stage of lief not when its actually on the fish. So therefore get as much out the water as poss and treat and wait. I once had a very back ICK case that lasted nearly 4 weeks!! As soon as i changed the meds to King British at half dose it was gone within days. Hope it clear up for you.

[Calypso mermaid]

Okay, just so it's clear......I know now and have been pulling the carbon before each Ick treatment....so it's been out during this treatment.

[Calypso mermaid]

oh yea, and last but not least......I always have a big air pump going in my tank with airstones and a bendy bubble wand.........they love it and actually frequently play and sleep right near the stone with the bubbles blowing their fins while they are out cold. It's pretty funny.

[shari2]

I know that the Pimafix label says safe to use with all fish and it's specially designed to work in combination with Melafix. I believed the label, treated my 55g tank (had an angelfish with split fins due to aggressive behavior) then left for work without watching the tank for fish reactions. It was 'safe' right?

Came back later in the day and one yoyo had jumped out of the tank, the gravid female was going nuts at the surface, and a second male was gasping on the bottom. I lost 3 yoyos, a bristlenose plec, and bunch of glo-light tetras.

I did a very unscientific autopsy on the female yoyo because I had been told she was probably too small to be gravid. Found a big batch of eggs that positively reeked of Pimafix.

That's why I don't use it. I'd never had a problem with Melafix before with any of my fish. Figured that since they were meant to work together, it would be fine. It wasn't. Others may have great experiences with it, I dunno.

Lesson learned. Never treat a tank and walk away. Watch your fish for a while to make sure the treatment isn't doing something it is not intended to do. Be there to intervene if you see things going bad.

........................

Edit:

FWIW Calypso, it sounds like you had the right ideas already with treating ich, you removed the carbon, had sufficient oxygenation, followed the directions, etc. The only problem was that by the time you were done with the first treatment, your fish were likely stressed and had depressed immune systems. The parasite will live in a symbiotic state with the fish as long as environmental conditions are optimal for the fish. When the animal is stressed, its immune system becomes depressed and the parasites get the upper hand. This allowed whatever ich was still present to overtake them again. That's why I usually recommend going well beyond the manufacturer's label dosing length. I know you continued treatment for a few days after the spots were gone, but apparently that was not long enough.

You clearly did what you thought was right and had some signs that it seemed to have worked. However, some strains of ich seem to be more virulent than others, and once it has survived one course of treatment it may be more resistant to using the same thing again. This second round you're in the middle of sounds like it may be responding to what you're already doing. If your clowns don't seem to react negatively to the Pimafix, and it seems to be helping, you don't have to discontinue on my say so. I just had a very bad experience with it myself, which is why I am suspicious of it.

As for the leaving the lights out; after looking around a bit, I found no scientific papers to support that it is light sensitive. There are anecdotal accounts of it needing light to reproduce, but apparently those are incorrect. Those accounts of limiting light being successful may have actually been due to the other treatment they were pursuing at the same time, rather than the lowered light levels.

Found a paper on a similar sounding progression of problems HERE. It talks about a pseudomonas infection on fish stressed by ich. They treated it with Formalin and antibiotics concurrently. Using two test groups, they tried kanamycin and oxytetracycline. Both seemed to work on the infection. During treatment of the infection they also continued to administer Formalin to treat the ich.

How is your large clown doing? Is there any way you could get a pic of him and post it here?

I'm sorry if I sounded critical, I'm trying to help you and your fish, not sound like a know-it-all because I'm not a specialist. Fish diagnosing over the internet is problematic. . .