Yoyos flashing - need ideas on differential diagnosis

[nari]

I have a 46ga tank with:
- 5 yoyo loaches
- 1 siamese flying fox
- 2 pearl gourami
- 6 glass catfish
- 6 amano shrimp
- 4 red cherry shrimp
Water parameters:
- NH3, NO2, NO3 all 0ppm

A few weeks ago I had stressed the tank by catching and removing some zebra danios. There was an outbbreak of severe fin rot in my harelequin rasboras, which ended up dying or being euthanized, as they could not handle the stress of being caught to move to an iso tank. It appeared to be fungal - thick white edge to affected area.
About 4 days ago, I lost 2 glass cats with fin rot, and noticed 2-3 of the loaches flashing. I changed 25-30% water and increased the aquarium salt from 1/2 tbs to 1tbs per 5ga. Loaches still flashing. 2 days ago changed additional 25-30% water, flashing stoped. This morning, 1-2 loaches started flashing again.
I have had the loaches for about 1 year. The flashing is a new thing. There does not appear to be any external parasites on the loaches. They are active, with good appetites. The water parameter pH, hardness, etc, I had tested at PetSmart, and were acceptable (don't remember the values). NH3, No2, and No3 i test at home, and were all 0ppm.
What is cauing this? As multiple fish are affected, and water change improved it temporarily, water quality could be an issue - but why are the shrimp and glass cats fine (extremely sensitive)? Also, no parameters tested were off.
They are well colored, no access slime, no visible white spots... The only thing I have seen that I don't remeber them doing before is yawning - when they come to the front of the tank to "show off" they stretch their mouths and barbels and the inner parts are visible. This only happens about once a day, per loach, that I notice. Today, 1 loach that had been flashing fluttered his gills foe a few seconds 2-3 times when at rest.
I cannot throw random meds into the tank, because many will kill the shrimp. My iso tank is not sufficient for 5 YoYos for a prolonged period of time (no filter, too small).
Any advice or ideas would be appreciated.

[shari2]

hi, nari,
welcome to lol.

There was an outbbreak of severe fin rot in my harelequin rasboras, which ended up dying or being euthanized, as they could not handle the stress of being caught to move to an iso tank. It appeared to be fungal - thick white edge to affected area.

sorry you lost them. you were using salt at the time, 1/2 tbs/5g?

changed 25-30% water and increased the aquarium salt from 1/2 tbs to 1tbs per 5ga. Loaches still flashing. 2 days ago changed additional 25-30% water, flashing stoped.

How often and how much water do you usually change? Do you add salt to the water you replace?

This morning, 1-2 loaches started flashing again.
I have had the loaches for about 1 year. The flashing is a new thing. There does not appear to be any external parasites on the loaches. They are active, with good appetites. The water parameter pH, hardness, etc, I had tested at PetSmart, and were acceptable (don't remember the values). NH3, No2, and No3 i test at home, and were all 0ppm.

You have 0 nitrates? How do you manage that? I have difficulty getting mine below 20ppm.

What is cauing this? As multiple fish are affected, and water change improved it temporarily, water quality could be an issue - but why are the shrimp and glass cats fine (extremely sensitive)? Also, no parameters tested were off.

I thought you mentioned losing a couple of glass cats? Do you still see fin rot on any of the other fish?

They are well colored, no access slime, no visible white spots... The only thing I have seen that I don't remeber them doing before is yawning - when they come to the front of the tank to "show off" they stretch their mouths and barbels and the inner parts are visible. This only happens about once a day, per loach, that I notice. Today, 1 loach that had been flashing fluttered his gills foe a few seconds 2-3 times when at rest.

Many loaches will yawn for whatever reason. I'd say once a day is not anything to worry about.
The gill fluttering? Did you notice if they were either redder than normal or paler than normal?

I cannot throw random meds into the tank, because many will kill the shrimp. My iso tank is not sufficient for 5 YoYos for a prolonged period of time (no filter, too small).

What size are the yoyos? About 3-4 inches?

Any advice or ideas would be appreciated.

A couple of things...
It sounds to me like you have a pretty heavy bioload in that tank.
Depending on how frequent your water changes are, and what your filtration is, you may have a water quality issue. Fin rot is often an indication of deteriorating water quality. Your test results don't seem to bear this out. However, the improvement in the loaches behavior after water changes does.

What filter do you have in the tank?

Do you usually keep salt in the tank, and at what level, if so? Loaches are freshwater fish that do not need and don't really appreciate salt in their tank all the time. They can tolerate salt as a treatment aid short-term, but salt should not be a constant in the tank. How long have you had them in salted water?
Have you ever had an ich outbreak in the tank?
Have you added any new fish recently?
Changed any of your routine lately?
Do you vac the substrate, and what type is it?
How well oxygenated is the tank?
Have you read the species index entry on Botia almorhae, or the Introduction to keeping Botia?
Flashing is a behavior that indicates irritation of some sort. Parasites will often cause fish to flash. So will poor water quality.
What type of test kit do you use at home? I'm afraid I'd question that nitrate reading of 0...

[Diana]

Test kits do deteriorate with age, and Nitrate tests are usually the first to go.
You do not know how long it sat on the store shelf, so even if you just bought it, it might be old.
IF it is Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, these are stamped with a production code that can be translated to the date of manufacture.

I would get the nitrate test confirmed.
A heavily planted tank might indeed show 0 ppm nitrate (I have a few tanks that regularly need nitrate to be added for the plants)

Fin rot is often triggered by stress and high nitrates.
The hint that the flashing slowed or ceased with a water change means there is something in the water that is irritating, whether there is something showing up in the tests or not. Until it is figured out, increase the water changes, try double the frequency of whatever your schedule was. (If you were doing 25% once a week, go for 25-30% twice a week)
I would stop adding salt to this tank; too many of your fish are not salt tolerant, and constantly keeping salt in the tank reduces its effectiveness when it is needed as medicine.

[mistergreen]

When this flashing started, did you introduce anything new to the tank? (fish, plants, snails etc)...

You might have introduced an external parasite.
if that's the case, API general cure (anti-parasite fish medication) works really well. Inverts seems to be ok with it. I think seachem has the same meds.

ps. your fish don't eat shrimps?

[nari]

Shari2:
- I had been keeping 1/2tbs per 5ga for the past 3/4 year. It was at this level when I lost the rasboras and cats, and when the flashing started.
- I usually change 25-30% water every 5 to 7 days. At each cleaning I vacuum all the substrate (medium sized smooth gravel) and clean the mechanical filters. Tank is well oxygented, and has constant breakup of entire surface by airtube bubbles along length of both sides of the tanks.
- I use the Aquarium Pharm tests, and have had the past few readings of 0ppm NH3, N02 and N03 levels verified by PetSmart (they do free water quality checks).
- The levels have stayed this low after initial cycling, and with the exception of when I had surgery and decreased tank cleaning to once every 10days. I think it is due to lots ans lot of cleaning, and avoiding overfeeding.
- I have not had any further fin rot since the 2 cats, I have never had Ick in the tank.
- The fluttering was only 3 times lasting about 2-3 sec, and the operculum did not open enough to see the gill fronds.
- THe loaches are at 1.75 to 2" not including tail fin.
- Shrimp and glass cats contribute negligable amounts to the bio-load. The loaches and gourami are about 2" each, and the flying fox about 1". I know inches fish per ga is not ideal, but it is the best guesstimation I know. 7 fish at 2" and 1 at 1" - leaves 15" fish in 46ga tank. I would consider this a lightly stocked aquarium.
- The gourami and cats were added right after the rasaboras died. They have been healthy except the 2 with fin rot.

- Mistergreen:
- The loaches ignore the shrimp. The Amano shrimp are 1" long and the Red Cherry shrimp 0.5" long, and very fast! The loaches will take naps next to the shrimp, and the shrimp will steal food tablets from the loaches. The other fish are occassiionally pestered by the loaches though.

- Update: This am, flashing increased in intensity and freq.
- NH3, NO2, NO3 all0ppm (rechecked at pet store)
- Changed 30% water, improved greatly, but not eliminated.
- As salt increase did not help, changed additional 25% without adding salt, decreasing salt to 0.75 tbs per 5ga.
- No more flashing during day.
- Will continue to wean down salt over next two days.
- I am procrastinating over catching a loach and doing a skin scrape, and I really don't want to resort to a gill biopsy or necropsy to diagnose this.

[shari2]

Here's hoping the removal of salt is all that's needed.

[nari]

Since they had no problem for over 8 mo with the salt, and the flashing started before it was increased, I am not holding my breath that stopping the salt it will make a difference.

[shari2]

Have you done a flashlight check for velvet?

[starsplitter7]

Have you done a flashlight check for velvet?

Sorry, I am jumping in on this thread. I don't know what this method is. Could you explain or give me a link? Thank you very much, Tanja.

[nari]

No. I was wondering if they could have that but my eyesight is not good enough to tell. I will have to find a good light source and check.

[shari2]

Tanja,

velvet (Piscinoodinium pillulare) or oodinium, is a flagellate protozoan parasite which attaches to the skin, fins and gills of fish. Similar to ich, the first sign is often flashing. The parasite has an amber pigment that can be visibly seen on heavily infected fish as a gold or rust colored sheen. If you shut off all tank and room lights and shine a flashlight on the fish, sometimes you can see the 'dust' or 'velvet'.

Couple of links on velvet:
http://www.geocities.com/steevward/oodinium.html - has a great list of fish pathogens in a link at the bottom of the page.

http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/bugsycostia0503.html - hobbyist account of a battle with costia then oodinium from a fancy goldfish keeper. More links at the bottom and some pics of scrapes used in diagnosing.

I'm not saying that velvet could be what's happening in your tank nari, but it does present with flashing and may be a possibility. Best of luck.

[nari]

I had centrifuged some water and examined the sediment with Sedi-stain, and did not see any free floating parasites, but the flashlight test sounds much nicer than doing a skin scrape to see if there are any on the fish. Will update on results tomorrow evening...

[starsplitter7]

Thanks so much. I did a bunch of reading, bookmarked the sites you recommended, . . . I really appreciate your time and patience with beginners like me.

[nari]

Update: When I got back home from my night shift, the bright morning sun was shining in the apartment and hitting the sides of the loaches. At least 3 are now showing some small 0.2-0.3 mm rust colored patches near their tails. Looks like it is Velvet disease. I am not glad they have Velvet, but I am glad to finally have a diagnosis, and something to base treatment on.

[shari2]

I agree wholeheartedly. It's very frustrating when you know your fish have 'something' and can't pin it down! Makes treating a terrible crapshoot.

Are your shrimp at all affected? Can you remove them to treat the velvet?