make me fat!

poeticpyro · Post by **poeticpyro** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:34 pm

** also about the new loach, sorry mikev i forgot about that question... yes i have gotten one in the past month, well... he was quarantined and recently put into the tank *at that time i had a spare 10gallon established tank, that is now with my ex since he has a sick and dying baby oscar* so... the loach should be fine. the petstore had no-clown loach deaths in 4weeks, which isn't too bad considering new shipments come in a lot and the little guy is eating just fine and he's slowly plumping up.

is the fact that i can't hear the clicking (or sucking) noise they make when they eat also a bad sign? or are they just weak? sometimes i hear it late at night with the snails that they find in the tank.

mikev · Post by **mikev** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:10 pm

Ok, if I read you correctly, it is not the new loach that died, and the new one was in the tank for only for a few days? --- then he is probably not the source of the infestation.

Your description of the parasites does not look familiar, but here is one thing that is worth doing: put the dead loach --hopefully you kept it-- into a glass container and fill it with the tank water that you medicated, watch the wormy things (hopefully they are still alive).

Doing this (when I had a similar problem) allowed me to quickly determine which meds were effective.

poeticpyro · Post by **poeticpyro** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:44 pm

the loach was a 1 year old... and it was the pack leader. NOT a newbie. the new one is doing well and it's out and nibbling on food more and more each day, the other two (1-1yr old and 1 6mo old) are sad, they know that the "leader" is dead... they're eating, but they're not as active as before. i'm going to get this "pepso food" for the fish tomorrow or late tonight, it cures all sorts of worms and shit.

i did not keep the dead loach... the vet has/had it. since i brought the dissected specimen to him entirely. i didn't think of that DAMNIT! lol, but if it ever happens again then i will keep it and test it. the loaches are coming out more, is this a good sign? they're snooping around, still a little lethargic looking, but they're moving the gravel around looking for food, which i'm assuming is good.

mikev · Post by **mikev** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:09 pm

At this point, behavior signs are probably not important.

If the parasites indeed came from shrimp, I'd assume that all of your fish ate it, and since you got multiple worms in one loach, you are almost certain to have some worms in others.

Anyway, it is not clear what you got exactly.

Keep in mind that medicated food works against some parasites (tapeworms) and tends to fail against some others (roundworms). By your description it *seems* not to be roundworms, but if it is, levimisole is a must, and time matters greatly.

When did you feed them the bad shrimp exactly? 2-3 weeks ago would be an indication toward smaller roundworms.

poeticpyro · Post by **poeticpyro** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:29 pm

i started last week... it was a post-easter gift to them... lame i know. but i've mainly been feeding bloodworms and they have been fine, since the puffers and khulis eat them everyday! thanks so so much though... are there any good signs of roundworm infection? the clown lost some weight and had strange "hiding" like behaviour...

mikev · Post by **mikev** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:38 pm

are there any good signs of roundworm infection?

yeah, sure. If the fish is still alive one month after you finished the treatment.

One week seems a bit too fast for worms to grow from an egg to a mature killer. Also, one week is too fast for a clown to visibly lose weight. I suspect your infection came in earlier.

If you don't mind: what brand was your suspect shrimp? Where on the other forum did you find the info about shrimp?

poeticpyro · Post by **poeticpyro** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:56 pm

sanfransico bay
i found out through a PM that i made to someone who was complaining about losing their puffers to the shrimp. and they said they bought it a month ago around where i am and that's when i bought the shrimp, but i didn't start feeding it. i got a new pack of shrimp from the place it's "jungle" brand or something like that, they traded it for free once i told them my problems... is there anything else that could have caused it? the loaches are ALL out right now they woofed down the bloodworms and the other fish (gourami and barbs) have normal looking fecal discharges, not as stringy and white, it's well.. normal looking. i have an air bar in there now, good idea or no? the filter is for a 60 gallon tank and mine's below that, i'm just worried. maybe it wasn't the shrimp, but i don't know how a clown could die on me. it's my first death, so please understand my constant worry and anxiety. thanks so much for all of your help. i already found a replacement loach, it's in the tank with the others since everything's being medicated and the loach was pre-quarantined because it's from a friend of mine and she is getting out of loach keeping since she's going to college. is it okay to go ahead and put him/her in the tank with the others? i asked a couple of other people, they said yes since it's already been established and yes it took me forever to get the fish adjusted and the other oddball one is bonding with it better than the two normal ones. thanks so so so so so much!

mikev · Post by **mikev** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:37 pm

On bad shrimp: I think you might be jumping to conclusions.

If some of the shrimp packages got spoiled, it is not sufficient for them to get infected with parasites. I also suspect that freezing kills worm eggs (freezing kills most multicell organisms by damaging the cell membranes).

On your new clown: imho this was a very bad idea. You are putting the new clown in danger. Right now, your tank is sick, and you don't really know what is going on and if you can fight it effectively; you have no way of knowing if your medication is working! You also have no way of knowing if your other tank is infected or not.

No new fish for at least a month, unless you can set up an NEW Q-tank and keep it there.

As for the source of your infection, I can only speculate. But I do recall something about dead kuhlis quite recently? Perhaps, that was the first installment of same problem.... My guess would be that the parasites came with one of the fish you bought within the last couple of months, but it may be something else.

poeticpyro · Post by **poeticpyro** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:30 pm

okay, the khulis i know the problem... it was my fault. they were stressed out completely and died due to stress, they were at the LFS for two days and i bought them... didn't think about asking how long they had been there, so no... it's not that. they're in a different tank anyway. the new clown is drawing the others out, which they're all eating now... odd! could this have been a single clown incident? i looked at my chlorine levels... they were a little high a couple weeks ago, i immediately changed the water and added a little extra dechlorinator. could that have done it? they're all eating greedily like they used to, squabbling over pellets and blood worms. please if you have any ideas just help, and thanks so much for everything. sorry about the clown being a bad idea, i thought it would be fine to go ahead and put it in since they're all being medicated and he/she might as well get it now. my fault, but i can't take it out now. it's a big clown and it seems like it's doing well... very deep orange and black, beautiful colors. random question... Do the odd-looking ones (with a different pattern other than three stripes) shoal better together? because mine are ALWAYS together and they're not ignoring the others they just really like eachother's presence... just wondering.

i'll keep everyone posted on everything, but they're all out and begging for food like they always do. they're also "dancing" a lot more like they used to, good sign?

poeticpyro · Post by **poeticpyro** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:30 am

Alright... so now... my luck, still sucking, i wake up and the heater has died, the back-up is too small, probably because i just bought this one 4 months ago (it's a stealth) and it tries to come on, but doesn't. hopefully they'll be okay until 2:40pm here *7:30am right now...

too too too much sadness

mikev · Post by **mikev** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:00 am

okay, the khulis i know the problem... it's not that. they're in a different tank anyway.

If I recall your post correctly, you also mentioned that they ate some other dead fish in your tank.

Being in a different tank matters less than you think, unless you have a proper firewall between the tanks. If you moved fish, gravel, water, or shared the net between the tanks, they should be both considered in danger. If you search the Web for nematode infection stories, you will find some interesting stuff, like a fellow who had, as I recall, 17 tanks out of 20 wiped out. Setting up a wall between your tanks now and treating BOTH is still a good idea.

Anyway, kill the worm, before it kills more. Don't endanger any more fish. Good luck!

poeticpyro · Post by **poeticpyro** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:58 pm

EVERYTHING is different between the tanks. they're in the same room, but get different buckets, siphons, nets everything so that i can make sure the issue stays within one tank (learned from ich). the loaches are out and about more, they're eating more also... maybe the treatments are working? could the dead heater have caused some strange behaviours, like not wanting to eat? or just added to that even? the temperature this morning was at 72F and now it's back up to 78F where i always keep it... damn heater.. stealth is sending me a re-embersement (spelling?) well thanks for all of your help. yes one khuli did eat a dead fish, but i had two die before that due to stress. the fish supposedly is "poisonous" if injested... it was a puffer. thanks though, for all of the help!

mikev · Post by **mikev** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:34 am

If the tanks are fully separate (good idea!), you are in a better shape.

(In my recent encounter with roundworms, I chose to be paranoid and treated all tanks. Even if I do keep everything separate and the problem affected only the Q-tank in a different room, there was still a possibility that I did not wash my hands well enough one time, and I did not feel like taking any chances with these things...)

Good luck!

poeticpyro · Post by **poeticpyro** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:49 pm

even the cleaning schedules are different... mass paranoia and loss with the ich incident... surpisingly though i didn't lose a loach! the "skinny" one is out and about more than the others now and is eating, has a little pot belly. do loaches generally act odd when one dies? especially if the clown was the "leader"?

mikev · Post by **mikev** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:01 am

Better to be paranoid than lose fish, imho.

When a leader dissappears. the hierarchy needs to be reestablished, and this takes a few days. This applies not just to clowns, but to other botia as well, and even to mixed groups.

(When I moved two new clowns to the big tank, yoyo's and kubotai's left behind were fighting for a week. First a yoyo grabbed the power, then a kubotai staged a successful coup....he is the undisputed capo now.)

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