River Tank Babies!!!
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- Emma Turner
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- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:07 pm
- Location: Peterborough, UK
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Thanks all! I have been so excited about this find, so it was awful being without a computer whilst this was going on!
We're still unsure as to what they might be. A few things have happened in the tank lately, which may or may not give us some clues. ....
Firstly, we used to have 8 Schistura balteata in this tank, but they gradually whittled their numbers down to just 2. At the time, we had thought there might have been a problem with the tank when we kept finding the bodies, but the water was spot on and no other fish were affected. Since then, the 2 remaining Schistura have become very secretive (they used to be out all the time) and when they do come out, there is no aggression whatsoever. They spend a lot of their time hidden behind/under cobbles in the darker areas of the tank.
Secondly, when I say we have a 'pair' of Annamia, I am not sure they are actually a mated pair. They were the sole survivors of a batch of unknowns from Vietnam, which HH said were likely to be Annamia. One is about twice the size of the other, and the smaller one has very dark colouration, and doesn't appear to have the checkerboard markings that the other has. I have never seen these two fish actually interact in any way. They usually keep themselves quite far apart in the tank. I can't remember a time I even saw them next to each other. I'll try and get some photos of both fish for comparison purposes. One thing I will say is that when the adult Annamia pose with their fins erect, the tail is very deeply forked. I'm not sure I can see this in the baby pictures.
And lastly, we added several female Sewellia lineolata to our established group of 6 males a short while back. The only thing I have noticed with these is that one was hanging upside down on the underside of a cobble stone for several days. I haven't spotted anything else such as pits being dug etc though.
Anyway, I wanted to say thank you to all who compared their cheni fry to my fry, it's very interesting stuff.
Now that the babies are in the little tank, they are proving harder to photograph, as they now have a sponge to hide under as well as the ceramic media they were found in - but I will keep trying! It will be good to document the changes whatever the babies grow up to be. We've been adding baby brineshrimp and Liquifry No 3 to the tank, and carrying out daily partial water changes.
If anyone's interested the parameters in the main tank as of 16/06/2006 were as follows:
pH = 6.6
Hardness = 4-5odH
Nitrates = between 5 and 10
Temperature = 77oF
And we added Indian almond leaves to the filter approx 2 months ago.
The water used in this tank is solely R.O. (which we occasionally re-mineralise with Tropic Marin 'Remineral Freshwater').
Emma
We're still unsure as to what they might be. A few things have happened in the tank lately, which may or may not give us some clues. ....
Firstly, we used to have 8 Schistura balteata in this tank, but they gradually whittled their numbers down to just 2. At the time, we had thought there might have been a problem with the tank when we kept finding the bodies, but the water was spot on and no other fish were affected. Since then, the 2 remaining Schistura have become very secretive (they used to be out all the time) and when they do come out, there is no aggression whatsoever. They spend a lot of their time hidden behind/under cobbles in the darker areas of the tank.
Secondly, when I say we have a 'pair' of Annamia, I am not sure they are actually a mated pair. They were the sole survivors of a batch of unknowns from Vietnam, which HH said were likely to be Annamia. One is about twice the size of the other, and the smaller one has very dark colouration, and doesn't appear to have the checkerboard markings that the other has. I have never seen these two fish actually interact in any way. They usually keep themselves quite far apart in the tank. I can't remember a time I even saw them next to each other. I'll try and get some photos of both fish for comparison purposes. One thing I will say is that when the adult Annamia pose with their fins erect, the tail is very deeply forked. I'm not sure I can see this in the baby pictures.
And lastly, we added several female Sewellia lineolata to our established group of 6 males a short while back. The only thing I have noticed with these is that one was hanging upside down on the underside of a cobble stone for several days. I haven't spotted anything else such as pits being dug etc though.
Anyway, I wanted to say thank you to all who compared their cheni fry to my fry, it's very interesting stuff.
Now that the babies are in the little tank, they are proving harder to photograph, as they now have a sponge to hide under as well as the ceramic media they were found in - but I will keep trying! It will be good to document the changes whatever the babies grow up to be. We've been adding baby brineshrimp and Liquifry No 3 to the tank, and carrying out daily partial water changes.
If anyone's interested the parameters in the main tank as of 16/06/2006 were as follows:
pH = 6.6
Hardness = 4-5odH
Nitrates = between 5 and 10
Temperature = 77oF
And we added Indian almond leaves to the filter approx 2 months ago.
The water used in this tank is solely R.O. (which we occasionally re-mineralise with Tropic Marin 'Remineral Freshwater').
Emma
East of the Sun, West of the Moon.
- Emma Turner
- Posts: 8901
- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:07 pm
- Location: Peterborough, UK
- Contact:
The adult Annamia are proving tricky to photograph today, particularly the smaller one who always hides behind decor and the filter pipes!
Here are some photos, and I will apologise in advance for the poor quality of most of them ....
This is the larger one:
This is a (crappy) close-up of the caudal fin, which is forked:
This is the smaller darker one. I have had to lighten this picture so that you can see the fish's general shape as it was resting in a very dark spot:
And an obscenely out-of-focus shot of the smaller one, showing the forked tail:
No new baby shots as yet, but I have zoomed in on some of the ones I'd already taken, to see if that helps. The quality obviously gets worse the more I zoom in - please bear in mind that these fish are tiny!...
Emma
Here are some photos, and I will apologise in advance for the poor quality of most of them ....
This is the larger one:
This is a (crappy) close-up of the caudal fin, which is forked:
This is the smaller darker one. I have had to lighten this picture so that you can see the fish's general shape as it was resting in a very dark spot:
And an obscenely out-of-focus shot of the smaller one, showing the forked tail:
No new baby shots as yet, but I have zoomed in on some of the ones I'd already taken, to see if that helps. The quality obviously gets worse the more I zoom in - please bear in mind that these fish are tiny!...
Emma
Last edited by Emma Turner on Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
East of the Sun, West of the Moon.
- Emma Turner
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- Location: Peterborough, UK
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ehh??? You've lost me there mikev! Several months ago we added a few Mesonemacheilus guentheri, but they arrived in very poor condition and did not last longer than a week. It's too long ago for this to have been anything to do with them, plus they were immature and particularly underweight specimens, so it wouldn't have been those. It's got to be one of three possibilities - Annamia, Schistura, or Sewellia.mikev wrote: but may it be that you had some homoloptera visiting a month or two ago?
Emma
East of the Sun, West of the Moon.
- Martin Thoene
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- Location: Toronto.....Actually, I've been on LOL since September 1998
I asked only to eliminate the possibility. I've seen a couple of times (and heard many more) cases when loaches go into spawning behavior instantly upon being placed into a new (better) tank, so a short-term guest(s) could be responsible too.Emma Turner wrote:ehh??? You've lost me there mikev!mikev wrote: but may it be that you had some homoloptera visiting a month or two ago?
In all cases, babies are great, and I hope to see the pictures them developing.
(My wife, btw, is really impressed with your Schisturas....said that they are the best looking hillstream she ever saw...)
- sophie
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is it me, or have the babies got those very big, very distinct, ventral fins?
I know body/head shape and also markings are likely to change, but those fins look very much like the annamia. I know the oldest and wisest say "can;t tell yet", and I would under all circumstances defer to them, but if I was betting, that would be my bet. just for those fins.
I know body/head shape and also markings are likely to change, but those fins look very much like the annamia. I know the oldest and wisest say "can;t tell yet", and I would under all circumstances defer to them, but if I was betting, that would be my bet. just for those fins.
- Emma Turner
- Posts: 8901
- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:07 pm
- Location: Peterborough, UK
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I'm still not convinced that these are Annamia because we have seen absolutely no interaction between the two fish in question.
But I've managed to take a few more pictures of the babies this evening, which I thought you'd all like to see:
In this first one, the little loachie ducked out of the way just as I took the shot, but it does give a good view of it's tail shape....
a slight fork, but nothing as pronounced as the adult Annamias.
A head-on shot....
And a couple of reasonable (although rather bright) close-ups....
To our eyes, those last two photos show the presence of barbels. In that case, could these therefore be Schistura balteata It would fit with the behaviour we have observed with the adults.
Emma
But I've managed to take a few more pictures of the babies this evening, which I thought you'd all like to see:
In this first one, the little loachie ducked out of the way just as I took the shot, but it does give a good view of it's tail shape....
a slight fork, but nothing as pronounced as the adult Annamias.
A head-on shot....
And a couple of reasonable (although rather bright) close-ups....
To our eyes, those last two photos show the presence of barbels. In that case, could these therefore be Schistura balteata It would fit with the behaviour we have observed with the adults.
Emma
Last edited by Emma Turner on Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
East of the Sun, West of the Moon.
- Graeme Robson
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- Martin Thoene
- Posts: 11186
- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:38 am
- Location: Toronto.....Actually, I've been on LOL since September 1998
Certainly looking a lot more Schist-like from that angle. Probably why I said they were like Zippers.
That tail looks to have a very slight V just like Schistura. Personally, I'm shifting to that area of betting.
Bottom line is this a win-win betting situation because we can all learn something from the development of these babies.
Martin.
That tail looks to have a very slight V just like Schistura. Personally, I'm shifting to that area of betting.
Bottom line is this a win-win betting situation because we can all learn something from the development of these babies.
Martin.
Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
- Emma Turner
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- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:07 pm
- Location: Peterborough, UK
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Not at all, Graeme!Graeme Robson wrote:How interesting! Hope you don't mind Emma, I've been playing around with contrast..etc to try and see something different. And i think i have!
As Martin says, however this turns out, we can't really lose. Any type of loaches breeding is wonderful news.
I'll continue taking photos (which should become easier as they get bigger ) and post regular updates.
We're really thinking about taking the Hikari danios back to the shop, as they are rather voracious, and if we have a breeding pair of loaches somewhere in that tank, we should maybe help them along the way.
Emma
East of the Sun, West of the Moon.
- Jim Powers
- Posts: 5208
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- Location: Bloomington, Indiana
Hmmm....those last pics showing the barbels, certainly do make me lean more towards the balteatas being the parents now.
But, as Martin said, the baby and adult hillstreams often look much different.
When I first saw babies in my original river tank, I thought they were disparis since I had seen them spawn but not the chenis. But after some time, I started to notice that these tiny fish were in fact chenis. I also began seeing the chenis spawn, so anything is still possible.
Regardless, its an accomplishment.
This mystery may take some time to be solved.
But, as Martin said, the baby and adult hillstreams often look much different.
When I first saw babies in my original river tank, I thought they were disparis since I had seen them spawn but not the chenis. But after some time, I started to notice that these tiny fish were in fact chenis. I also began seeing the chenis spawn, so anything is still possible.
Regardless, its an accomplishment.
This mystery may take some time to be solved.
- Graeme Robson
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- Jim Powers
- Posts: 5208
- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:15 pm
- Location: Bloomington, Indiana
You know, Emma, the more I look at those Annamias, the more I wonder if they are even the same species. The heavily marked one (quite a beauty, by the way ) looks much different than the smaller one. I have a mystery fish that I have had for about 2-3 years now that looks much like the smaller one, particularly from the side view. It is very reclusive and despite eating well, has never grown to more than 1.4 inches.
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