Hello everbody

[Tinman]

Thanks Loachmom. That is "Left spot". I also have a "Right spot"

[chefkeith]

That's my kind of fishroom. Nice fish everywhere. I do wish you'd reconsider putting sand substrates in the bare bottom tanks with the loaches. It's kind of a hot button issue with some loach keepers here.

[Tinman]

That is fascinating to me.............I am going downstairs to hang a rack with substrate in it in my tank. What if I hang a rack with rocks in it up off the bottom of my tank so it doesn't trap the waste. I feel very strongly that ANY waste in a tank, not in the filter is a danger to the fish.Substrate traps waste so therefore substrate is not as valuable as advertised,now I am VERY open-minded to a arguement for substrate and would do it in a heartbeat if my fishies would be better-off . Its all about the fish for me and their well-being. I have some racks that I used to hold different media in my bio-stacks that are about 2 square feet and I will go hang that in my new loach tank up off the bottom with a rock in it.(Does substrate need to touch the bottom?????). I have many size rock or substrate, if you will, to use what is the best for new loachs of 1-3" range.???? Sand .....Baby pebbbles ....or larger pebbles or small rocks???? I am very concerned about leaving anywhere for waste to accumulate in my tank. This affects so many things.........I have fish that poop bigger than most peoples fish grow too is the only way to describe it but not in my loach tank.My clown knife alone eats 24 large earthworms every day with an occasional skip day but I may be a victim of treating all tanks the same,no where for waste. I have a stack of rock with minimum surface contact that is alive with algea and grazed by all in the tank with sufficient hiding for all that want or require it..My hilli's are vibrant ,growing and always active....My other loaches have beautiful color and feed voraciously.If it is important I will build it tonight but why?????I suffered a major crash and lost too many 5 fish years ago and I THOUGHT the culprit was my gravel and the trapped waste. I removed all the gravel and I have been on cruise control ever since.You all just had a post where the largest fish just up and checked out with fine water conditions and I suffered from this every so often,It was like the fish load reached its max for the tank because of growth and so much bio load there-fore had to die and ussually it was the largest or an otherwise fine specimen that just croaked like DOINK ,I'm dead.I could never explain it but.... I could always keep my tanks cleaner so I do now....... No Gravel with high water flow equals no poop to sit so no danger too fish. I have No deaths in over two years except for two clowns out of 14 puchased lately and any is too many but 2 out of fourteen in the first three months is pretty good as acclimation is half of it. I value your opinions and would read all obsevations as I am here because I want the best fer my fish..........Does a substrate need to be on the bottom???? I like nothing touching the bottom. Even the smallest pebble will gather waste around it unless you have such a high flow your fish burn to many calories trying to keep up with the flow and die from malnutrition or just tire.......Tinman

[worldrallynut]

I say don't fix what isn't broken. If you went with substrate and are worried about waste getting trapped, sand will keep almost all of the waste on the surface making for easy cleaning. That said, getting it into the tank would be a PITA, and keeping it there would be even tougher. The sand will get heavy once established, but until then it will be light and make a mess as it sounds like ur pushing alot of water.

[chefkeith]

This isn't Loaches Online for nothing. For many here, Loaches are the centerpiece of their aquariums. Just remember, this is a loach forum and that I'm kind of biased, actually very biased towards loaches. When somebody mentions clown loaches, I get emotional, almost like they are family.

Since loaches are Bottom dwelling fish from fast flowing waters, I think Sand is best for them. In a tank with fast flowing water, if waste gets on the sand the loaches will usually sweep it up and around, and the waste will be carried away into the filters. Loaches also appreciate lots of shelter, where there is little water flow. So a balance needs to be created between high water flow areas and low water flow areas. Now I'm talking about a species tank, not a normal community set-up. Additional powerheads need to be strategically placed, for better flow, and so that there is little accumilation of waste. I usually try to get lots of circular flow around the tank. With all the rockwork or driftwood placed in the center of the tank. This middle area will act like a buffer and be a low water flow zone. If there is accumilation of any debris, it will usually all gather in one spot, like in a corner. There are other ways to reach this clean sand goal also. Undergravel Jets and more filter intakes would help. My favorite way to keep everything clean, is more loaches. Pangio loach Species have a small bioload and provide alot of bottom movement, stirring everything up and off of the sand. They'll sift through the sand finding any leftover food also.

For a loach tank I'd recommend pool filter sand because of it's grain size consistency. It doesn't easily get sucked up into the filters, whereas many playsands will. There are other good types of sands to use as well.

I do agree that a bare bottom tank is great for messy middle/top dwelling fish like Arowana, Knifefish, Oscars, ect.. I don't think loaches are a good combination with these types of fish though. Like I said before, I'm quite biased towards loaches.

There are some great examples of loach set-ups here at LOL.

[Emma Turner]

Hi again Tinman,

I'd really would recommend that you have another serious think about adding sand to your loach tanks.

Clowns in particular, love a high flow environment. As the sand compacts down (with any waste that is initially missed by the filter sitting on top of it), the good water movement and digging action of the loaches will stir any debris up and into the path of your filter intakes. It's nowhere near the same as having gravel, where detritus does build up between the pieces and has to be manually removed by vacuuming, it cannot do this with sand.

You will be missing out on seeing a lot of natural behaviour from the loaches at the moment. They love to forage about in the sand, and having a natural coloured layer on the bottom of the aquarium will definitely make them feel safer and more relaxed. Bare bottom aquariums do have their uses, but I really don't think that these are beneficial for bottom dwellers such as loaches.

I have to admit that I also feel the same as chefkeith when it comes to clowns, having kept them for over 14 years now. I do hope you reconsider adding substrate to those aquariums housing your loaches, they will really appreciate it.

The best way to add the aquatic sand would be to briefly turn off the pumps and add the pre-rinsed sand (washed beforehand in a bucket until the water runs clear) with the use of a small jug or similar. The water may still cloud very slightly initially, but once you turn the pumps back on, it should clear pretty quickly. I have a huge amount of water movement on my clown tank, and (touch wood) have never ever had any issues with the sand being drawn into filters or powerheads.

Best wishes,

Emma

[loachmom]

Hi Tinman,

I was just showing my husband your great pictures. I was wondering why you named a picture of some tetras "pH meters"? Do they change color according to pH?

[Tinman]

I came home to find so many nice posts You guys are correct .I have thought about this all day today and concluded the same the sand works well upstairs as it does not pack up with goo that scares me so........I thought worst case scenario I may have to add a little pump or two to blow the surface clean and thats when the light clicked on Martins river tank system for me...........Some of us need a shove not just a nudge ....I have looked as substrate a base for plants and plants add a whole different twist to everything from lights to keeping fish that won't damage them ,to ph, to.............so now if I am taking this road I am going to slow down, take a deep breath,and ask a couple of questions of the forum I have a large quarentine tank on my system I can valve off so I can soak the sand in it after I rinse it if that is neccesary. Can I add that much sand without changing my water conditions,i.e. is the sand effectivly inert?or should I add small increments over a long time.I know you had some comments on this Emma and I will go back and read them again.Is 1-2" enough or more. I am going back out on the site to do some more reading

[Tinman]

Chefkeith, Thank You

[Tinman]

Yes Loachmom,they are my poor little canarys in a coal mine , They dim with conditions but my real barometer is my Pink Tailed Chalceus.The red in the fin tells the story of my tanks......Bright is right and dingy means slow down or speed up on the water change depending on the current inflow of city water. Rather than large water changes I do a constant flow from the city. A 10percent water change is a hundred gallons so water changes are slow and always on going here. Ph stays almost flatline this way for me.

[chefkeith]

The sand needs to be inert. Silica and Quartz sands are inert. Some sands may not be inert, such as limestone and coral sand (bright white beach sand).

I usually add enough sand until all the low spots stay filled. It may take a few weeks to get the sand height correct and to adjust the water flow direction so that the sand doesn't pile up too much. I've never needed more than about 1" of sand.

[worldrallynut]

As far as adding the sand to the tank, you still need to rinse beforehand to remove the fine particles. If you are able to empty the tank before you add the sand, what I reccomend is draining the tank, then add all the sand. Once the sand is in the tank, get a large garbage bag and lay it over the sand. Pour your water back in over the bag, and you won't stir all the sand up. This is what I did for my reef. That said, the loaches might stir everything up as soon as they are back in the tank anyways .

[Martin Thoene]

I hadn't been following this thread or seen the pictures. I have to agree with everything that's been said about sand so far, but also what I seem to be seeing is rocks in your tanks which are basically unsuitable for loaches.

There appears to be a predominance of what looks like calciferous rocks and possibly tufa rock (the orangey stuff). This is generally extremely rough in texture anmd represents a hazard to delicate barbels and skin.

Anything calciferous will affect water chemistry.

Please correct me if I'm misinterpreting the photos.

Martin.

[Tinman]

Most of my rock is lace rock that I have used since the mid 80's,some of the colored pieces are from the 70's when I started keeping fish and worked in a LFS after school. I have never had any damage to my fish from scratchs or I have never noticed damaged barbels. 3 of my 4 tanks house loachs and they are my prime focus. I used to keep two very large eels and they have very similar delicate skin.(Loaches and eels LOVE each other)The piles of rocks actually are an intergral part of my system as I depend the algea growth for food and oxygen .The bio-mass of the stack of rock is considered part of my filtration by me.Besides all my other filtration I have two large stacks ,one in each tank where the fish are small enough to not upset them and cause a falling rock injury .The larger loachs,bicher and 2 cats that live in my 3rd loach tank have PVC as to have minimum surface contact for sanitary reasons .Then each cat one rock not piled up to hide under .They do move the rocks around. The bigger problem I have with rock is all my water comes from Colorado via the limestone deposits that make up Kansas as it was an inland sea eons ago.Before I downsized my system when I moved here 5 years ago I kept a DI system running on a large trash can of water that I would roll out and do my water changes with. I have learned over the years to deal with the hand that was dealt with this water and now I only keep fish I have found to thrive in my conditions here.That is why I only have 7 variaties of loaches now. A lot of my wood has been used up over the years and I do need to add some of that again.You guys have had GREAT ideas and observations .I get the impression you guys may think my fish are imprisoned in a office cubicle type ,sterile ,jail cell enviroment .This is not the case .These pampered pets live better than most children and thrive here. I do things quite a bit different than most. I use taller tanks than some and keep a school of mid-water loach friendly fish above as the loaches love to come up and play or just herd the schools around.Everybody has 5 sides of there tanks bare.I just have six. I took today off work to go get some inert sand for my front tank in case anyone would question my passion for loaches .I am really enjoying you guys here. I value your experiance .I hope I do not offend as I have never joined a forum before so excuse comment that may unintentionally offend or any off topic rambling. .........Tinman

[Tinman]

Thanks Worldrallynut. I have used it upstairs and I will rinse it clean then soak in actual tank water before adding.