Help the Loaches!

[mikev]

I think forget about levamisole for this case, it was a long shot and it did not work (but treating them was still a good move long-term).

Probably, but less certain, the same goes for ich meds.

The next likely reason is that there is something in your water that irritates them, perhaps it comes from the tap. There seems to be some evidence of yoyo's particularly sensitive to *something* in the water -- there were two reports of yoyo's dieouts after water changes.

See what you can find out about your water.

[pedzola]

I dunno what I can find out besides what I already know. :\ And if I did find something, how would I fix it?

I would have to get RO? :\

[pedzola]

Stopped by the fish store yesterday.

I asked what flashing can be a sign of. The store owner said, definitely parasites.

He said I should treat for at least 14 days because of the parasite lifecycle.

So, 5 days of prazi and roughly 1 day of levamisole doesn't sound adequate by these standards.

Should I go ahead and do more of one or the other?

What do you think?


I was looking up more "advanced" test kits, but I'm not sure what I'm looking for. I know that $250 for a water test kit seems like an awful lot! Might as well just buy an RO unit for $250.

If I were to do water changes w/RO water - how would that affect my loaches? Would it be bad?

[sophie]

flashing and parasites I can't really help you with, I'm afraid; but a chunky -permanently - yoyo is likely to be a female. I've got a 50-5- split of slightly smaller, slim yoyos and slightly bigger, deeper and fuller bellied ones. I'm pretty sure the second lot are female. They're still pretty small - 2-3 inches - but I think it's simply a gender difference.

[pedzola]

I've come to suspect this as well.

This "bellied" yoyo was purchased a couple months after the first 2. #1 and 2 are pretty much the same, long and slender, tho w/slightly different markings.

This #3 is darker all around, and now has this belly. Slightly smaller than the other 2 overall, but a lil chubby!

I think I only noticed the belly at the same time I noticed the loach was flashing a lot. So I assumed they went together.

As you said - probably not. Prolly just a girl yoyo.




Doesn't help the flashing problem tho! She's itchy!

[pedzola]

So I've been letting the tank "chill" for the last couple of day w/no meds.

The Yoyo loaches seem to be getting somewhat more reclusive, and also scratching as much as before.

Last night I also saw my shark flashing a couple times, which I hadn't seen lately.



I'm really at a loss. I mean, apparently its nothing bad enough to make them really sick? Or else perhaps one of the meds slowed down the problem but didn't solve it... and now unmedicated its coming back or getting worse?

I dunno.

I wish there was a way to test my water better? It really does seem pristine though.

I'm thinkin about doin another dose of parasite meds for "insurance." Either the levamisole or the prazi. The levamisole seemed to really affect the fish so I dunno how I feel about doin that more. But I feel like maybe it wasn't enough cause I really only had it in the tank for about a day.

[mikev]

What do you mean exactly by levamisole affecting your fish?
(I've been using it quite a lot, and I did not see much of an effect on fish behavior other than appetite losses in *infected* fish). In any case, I don't think that more levimisole will do anything, and the same likely applies to prazi.

There should be other medicine for *external* parasites, it is worth exploring.

It may be a good idea at this time to post your situation on a couple of other forums, for example, on www.fishforums.net. Some people in the emergency section there are quite good (Wilder). I don't think that the problem you are having is really all that loach-specific, so good experienced non-loach people may be able to say something.

Yet another possibility: how far are you from NY? Maybe chatting with the place where I get my fish is worth it (the guy is very good in some things, like general maintenance, and a few times helped me to tune up the tanks/water).

[pedzola]

hmmmmmmm.....

#1) How did Levamisole affect my fish? All fish lost appetites, even the tiger barbs who are normally ravenous eaters. The other thing is that all the fish started swimming at the bottom of the tank only. Tiger and cherry barbs were acting like loaches, not leaving the gravel.

#2) External parasites - I thought the ich med was for treating external beasties? Like, isn't ich itself some kind of parasite? And also, I thought prazi treated all parasites, internal and external.

I only did the ich med for 3 days at 1/2 dose. Rid Ich specifically says safe for loaches at full dose on the back, so maybe I was being overly cautious in using a half dose. Maybe I should do 3 more days of that on full dose, or another week of Prazi.

The ich med DID seem to help my white-headed clown (who was "healed" and is still doing well).


I did post on a couple other boards but didn't get much of a response. I will try again maybe w/the full history now. =|

Thanks for volunteering your aquarium guy also. I would hate to bother a professional about an itchy fish though. If it becomes a real problem I will be frantic to try anything, but at this point im still exploring the problem and the fish don't seem to be in dire need of help just yet.

Just itchy.

I'm leaning towards another round of either the ich med or the prazi again.

HOWEVER, if you said that Levamisole only made your INFECTED fish not eat, then maybe I should seriously consider doing another day or 2 of that.

=|

[mikev]

Levamisole: re-confirm. The only cases of appetite loss were among the fish very likely infected by indirect worms (likely tapeworms), these were loaches and a pleco. All showed improved growth later after the treatment. No effect on most dither (barbs, danios, rasboras), possibly *very mild* effect on WCMM's (one feeding loss of enthusiasm: perhaps because these like clear water and levamisole stinks?)

Levamisole really should have no effect on any vertibrates. If you have an effect, it may mean that your drug is not pure enough, did you filter it?


===

Ext parasites:

External parasites - I thought the ich med was for treating external beasties?

There are many kinds of parasites out there, and different drugs are needed. Ich meds are for one class, prazi for another, but there are more. As an extreme example, consider "fish lice": this one has to be removed by hand (I had it once in my old GF days.....). No single drug will take all.

----

In general, it does not feel like another round of what has been tried already will do much. Time to switch meds or get some more help.
Further, I'd take "just itchy" seriously enough: you got something going wrong and unless you figure it out and fixi it, it will likely get worse. Consider yourself lucky that you have symptoms before deaths...it can happen in the other order too. ....

[pedzola]

Not sure what you mean by "filter" the levamisole.

Can you elaborate?

I got "Levasole" the pig wormer. It is some bunch of powder in a 500ml bottle, that I mixed with water. I shook it vigorously for a very long time to mix it up.

What further could I do???

Today more fish are scratchin themselves (noteably, my shark and a couple clowns).

Since I had only done 1/2 dose of the ich med I'm gonna try it at full dose for a day and see if there is any change in the fish.



So yah im takin it seriously... ill post on more fish forums tonight and try to get some help from others.

[pedzola]

So after a big water change and a full-strength dose of Rid-Ich, I am seeing tiny wriggling things in the water column again. (like when I dosed the first time w/prazi). Much less than when I did the prazi, but they were there.


This gives me some hope. We'll see if there is any improvement in the fish tomorrow.

[mikev]

Not sure what you mean by "filter" the levamisole.

Can you elaborate?

I got "Levasole" the pig wormer. It is some bunch of powder in a 500ml bottle, that I mixed with water. I shook it vigorously for a very long time to mix it up.

What further could I do???

Run it through coffee filter before putting it into the tank to remove some insoluble impurities. Some sites recommend this.

I'm saying this only because I don't see why levamisole should cause any reaction in your fish. Even if it kills *an external parasite attached to the fish*, why should it affect the appetite? (It is not like having a dead and rotting worm *inside*).

Since I had only done 1/2 dose of the ich med I'm gonna try it at full dose for a day and see if there is any change in the fish.

Different parasites --> different meds. Anti-Ich meds are probably not going to have any effect on the "worm-like things".

[pedzola]

After some further research, the closest fish ailment that matches the problems I'm seeing appears to be "Trichodina," a protozoan parasite.

Symptoms:

Flashing, clamped fins, lethargy, increased slime coat.

I've noticed all of these except the slime coat... tho I'm not really sure how I'd SEE extra slime coat.

Lucky for me, Rid-Ich seems to be a recommended treatment for Trichodina and other protozoan parasites.


Altho... I am curious why there was such a reaction to the Levamisole HCL if you say there should be virtually none in a healthy fish.


I'll let you know how the fish are doin tonight after 24 hours of full-dose rid-ich.

I'll consider it a success if I see less flashing and more active fish. And I will do a water change and add another dose.

o__O

If I see no change I will make a plea for help on every fish board I can find. lol

[mikev]

1. Levamisole: Again, I never had problems with levamisole and I never heard about adverse reaction from a fish that was not heavily infected already. There could be several reasons for what you report: impurity/contamination in the bottle you got, combination with other meds (no bad combinations are known to me, however), or perhaps it was a reaction to the other meds you were using.

2. Your diagnosis: Trichodina. Well, may be yes, may be no. I've suggested anti-ich poisons originally to cover things like this, BUT: after treating for a few days you are not seeing progress, so this may be a false lead too. Decide on the time limit: 10 days, 2 weeks, something like this, and if you don't see things getting better, I think you should assume that it is not *this type of parasite*. 24 hours are probably not enough, but if you don't get anything at all after 3-4 days of *full dose*, I'd start looking elsewhere.

[pedzola]

I think you're right on the 3-4 days of full dosage.

I'm guardedly optimistic... they look better today already. A little more active. Tho perhaps this is my imagination.

I'm gonna do a water change and another dose.



The Rid Ich bottle says to treat every 24 hours. It doesn't seem to make a big deal about a water change between treatments, tho it does say you can do a change up to 25% I think is the wording they used.

Does that mean this stuff breaks down on its own in the water? Cause taking 25% of it out and adding 100% back in every day for a week sounds like setting yourself up for some pretty strong concentrations.


O__o o__O


As for the Levamisole again, I was doing large water changes every day. So if there was any other meds in the water at the same time it was only residual.