My 240g tank journal

[jones57742]

I havent figured out what I am going to do yet, I may make a powered reactor in the sump, or a Mazzei venturi in the return lines to the tank. Not sure.

Tristan:

You are obviously "way ahead of me on the curve here" but I have one item which you might consider.

Please note that I am very familiar with Bernoulli's equation, somewhat familiar with venturis for measurement and barely familiar with venturis for injection.

I Googled for Mazzei venturi and reviewed Mazzei's literature.

I do not know that a Mazzei venturi will accomplish your goal.

The following is based on my understanding of a "high end CO2 system" (which, expressed in it's most simplistic form, is a pressure tank with a regulator and an injection device).

This may sound "crazy" but have you considered a DIY venturi injector consisting of
1) a valve
2) an inverted vortex preventer and
3) some type of diffusion screen.

TR

[crazy loaches]

No I havent considered DIY venturi actually... when it comes to creating co2 mist, venturies are very tricky to get perfect. For the most part the Mazzei is the only venturi on the market that when properly matched to a pump, works well. And there are many other cheaper ones out there, but yet youll see folks spending quite a bit more on the Mazzei all the time. I think my problem is my pump isnt a high head pump and the Mazzei relies on some head pressure. I am awaiting word from some of those that have used the Mazzei, but I figure I'll end up just making a diy reactor.

[crazy loaches]

Fertilizer Dosing

I haven't had much time to work on anything lately, but here at work I've been crunching some numbers on the dosing routine.

This is going to be a heavily planted tank, and even planted tanks heavily stocked with fish need some ferts. I plan on doing simple EI dosing method, and adjusting from that if need be. I was running into some problems though on the simple part. It seems most of the dosing charts don't include tanks this size. I made some posts over on the Barrreport.com (Tom Barr's forum, he's is a pretty big time plant guru for those not familiar with him) and got some mixed answers. Eventually I found a tank Tom had done very similar to mine just a little larger, with similar plant species and also heavy stocking, and used that as a template. What I did was come up with a ratio how much smaller my tank was, and multiply that by all his dosing amounts. He claims the tank was 29 * 29 * 96 + 50g of sump for around ~400g. I figure I am at about 70% of that. Tom reported that he dosed 3X a week: 1tbsp KNO3, 1.5 tsp KH2PO4, 200ml TMG

So, applying this to my tank (70%):
KNO3 = .9tsp daily, 6.3tsp weekly, 9tbsp monthly
KH2PO4 = .45tsp daily, 3.15tsp weekly, 4.5tbsp monthly
TPN = 60ml daily, 420ml weekly, 1.8l monthly (this one is going to be pricey )

For those not familiar with ferts, KNO3 is dosed for Potassium and Nitrate, KH2PO4 is for Potassium and Phosphate. And TPN is Tropica Plant Nutrition (formerly known as Tropica Master Grow, TMG) and is for trace elements and micro ferts.

I will be autodosing daily, so I needed to break it down into daily figures. And I am hoping to have a 30 day reservoir on the dosers, so I calculated monthly totals to.

I am definitely trying to automate this part, I know Tom and some others are against automation here, but one of the biggest things I struggle with my current planted tank is dosing it. I have determined it is impossible for me to consistently dose it, I am away to often and work a strange 12 hr rotating shift schedule and am often to tired to even venture to that room of the house lol. Did I mention I am often very lazy...

Next thing to do is to test how much my pumps flow in 1 minute (the minimum time my controller can run them).



My first testing showed that it delivered 1 1/3 cup per minute. That is .315 liter or .0833 gal. That works out to exactly 1 gal per 12 doses. So my 2.5 gal jugs would hold 30 days, perfect.

I still have to do a lot more testing for consistency, also things like testing when the jugs are full vs almost empty to see how much it will change. If it turns out not to be reliable enough then no big deal, my pumps were only $10 each (Tom Aqualifters).


[edit, added 01-22-08]
I have calculated out how much my fertilizer usage will be pound-wise. If the info given me from AquariumFertilizer.com is correct, then 1# of these ferts is 1.5 cups, which equals 72 teaspoons. With my dosage calculation above, that equates out to 4.5 lbs of KNO3 and 2.25 lbs of KH2PO4 per year.

[loachmom]

Tristan,

Even though this is way over my head, I find this thread fascinating. I never miss an update.

[jones57742]

Tristan:

As usual more questions and/or comments for my edification.

(Do you wish by now that I would not have joined the Forum?)

1) Are these pumps submersible pumps and if so how do you deal with the unwanted byproducts due to corrosion?

2) Yes. Your pump delivery with vary with the head in the jugs unless these pumps are what I refer to a positive displacement piston type pumps.

3) If these are not positive displacement pumps then setting up a third jug with jugs 2 & 3 communicating via a tube near the floor and with a float valve (in my words: your have much more sophisticated equipment) in Jug#1 such that when Jug #1 is full the pump in Jug #2 will turn off. The daily injection would be from Jug #1 from which you then have a constant head.
I know that this involves additional equipment which means additional maintenance costs as well as replacement costs.

4) There is an 2nd alternate which will insure that jug #1 maintains an elevation such that the pump is flooded. This configuration would would again require three jugs and a float in Jug #1. The float valve in Jug #1 would be elevated such that the pump would be submeerged.

5) The absolute best which I can think of is place the pump in the 1st jug, the 2nd and 3rd jugs communicating but the bottom of the 2nd and 3rd jugs would be at the elevation above the "top water surface" in Jug #1 which has a float valve.
(please not that in this option a large covered vessel such as a rubermaid tub which has 10G would last 2 months).
I brought up this option last as from reviewing your photographs I do not believe that this is feasible in your enclosure.

TR

[crazy loaches]

Tristan:

As usual more questions and/or comments for my edification.

(Do you wish by now that I would not have joined the Forum?)

1) Are these pumps submersible pumps and if so how do you deal with the unwanted byproducts due to corrosion?

2) Yes. Your pump delivery with vary with the head in the jugs unless these pumps are what I refer to a positive displacement piston type pumps.

3) If these are not positive displacement pumps then setting up a third jug with jugs 2 & 3 communicating via a tube near the floor and with a float valve (in my words: your have much more sophisticated equipment) in Jug#1 such that when Jug #1 is full the pump in Jug #2 will turn off. The daily injection would be from Jug #1 from which you then have a constant head.
I know that this involves additional equipment which means additional maintenance costs as well as replacement costs.

4) There is an 2nd alternate which will insure that jug #1 maintains an elevation such that the pump is flooded. This configuration would would again require three jugs and a float in Jug #1. The float valve in Jug #1 would be elevated such that the pump would be submeerged.

5) The absolute best which I can think of is place the pump in the 1st jug, the 2nd and 3rd jugs communicating but the bottom of the 2nd and 3rd jugs would be at the elevation above the "top water surface" in Jug #1 which has a float valve.
(please not that in this option a large covered vessel such as a rubermaid tub which has 10G would last 2 months).
I brought up this option last as from reviewing your photographs I do not believe that this is feasible in your enclosure.

TR

I dont mind, Jones some of my choices along the way I am sure may be questionable and you always have some interesting suggestions.

I mentioned the pumps earlier in one of the plumbing pics, I dont have any pics of them close up but they made it into this picture so far:


At the top corners of the picture you can see the Tom Aqualifters, and the 2.5g reservoirs in the middle. And no, they are not submersible. I am unsure what you mean about corrosion though, I am already using many submersible pumps and have never seen any corrosion yet. For accuracy many folks that have rigged up DIY autodosers have used peristaltic pumps but they are pricey, usually around $100 each or so for cheap ones. A few have used the Aqualifters long term just fine so thats why I am trying them first. As an alternate method I do already have an idea - one I believe to be unique and reliable, but involves some custom control circuitry that I;d have to make or use the Neptune Controller except that I have no more switch inputs available.

[jones57742]

I dont mind, Jones some of my choices along the way I am sure may be questionable and you always have some interesting suggestions.

Thanks Tristan: you are into making it work which is much, much more difficult than only understanding why it works which you do also (although the theoretical folks sometimes save the experimental folks a ton of time with the theoretical folks screwball thinking)!

At the top corners of the picture you can see the Tom Aqualifters, and the 2.5g reservoirs in the middle.

If you do not have to prime the pumps then they are positive displacement which is "1st class" for your application.

And no, they are not submersible. I am unsure what you mean about corrosion though, I am already using many submersible pumps and have never seen any corrosion yet.

Just a question. I have never used a submersible pump in an aquarium but even in tertiary water treatment I use stainless steel pumps for parts which are exposed to the water but these pumps are 3 phase 420 creatures (these pumps are big "motor scooters").

It may be that in the aquarium world synthetic materials will work just fine with the addition of stainless steel parts where necessary.

the Neptune Controller except that I have no more switch inputs available.

This a "wild thought" but would it be possible to "cascade" one of the inputs similar to the AT hardware interrupts from 8 to 15 on the XT bus?

TR

[crazy loaches]

Sorry Jones if you were expecting some answers, I missed that you posted.

If you do not have to prime the pumps then they are positive displacement which is "1st class" for your application.

I'm not familiar with that term. But what I can say is that they are a diaphragm type pump designed for very light duty application. They are designed to pump water but apparently will pump air as well, so they dont suffer from loosing prime from what I have seen. Many folks use these on continuous siphon type overflows for extra assurance that siphon is not lost by pumping out a small amount of water and any air that accumulates in the overflow, continuously. They arent a high quality piece, but they are cheap, and a few have used them in the past for dosing ferts successfully (the one fellow with whom I have talked a few times is now over a year using them without incident).

Just a question. I have never used a submersible pump in an aquarium but even in tertiary water treatment I use stainless steel pumps for parts which are exposed to the water but these pumps are 3 phase 420 creatures (these pumps are big "motor scooters").

It may be that in the aquarium world synthetic materials will work just fine with the addition of stainless steel parts where necessary.

Filters are basically submersible pumps (HOB's, canisters, etc.) powerheads, etc. If I am not mistaken they are all shaded pole permanent magnet motors. The motor and windings are in plastic and epoxy, the rotor is a permanent magnet and the shafts are either stainless steel or ceramic. The exception is some non-submersible pumps and filters are equipped with air cooled induction motors. Corrosion usually isnt an issue, as these are designed with application in mind of course.

I am familiar with some big motors as well, actually some of the motors I deal with (well not directly) are enormous at > 10MW that are used as fans and pumps in power plants. Here is actually a small one:

This a "wild thought" but would it be possible to "cascade" one of the inputs similar to the AT hardware interrupts from 8 to 15 on the XT bus?

Well I have not dealt with interrupts in a very long time (well not so much long time but bad memory....), are you talking about having it cycling through multiple switches... like multiplexing? I dont think it is possible with the controller programming itself... For example I have:

If Time > 00:00 Then ALM OFF
If Switch1 OPEN Then ALM ON
If Switch1 OPEN Then PM1 OFF
Max Change 001 M then PM4 OFF

This is a copy n paste of a small part of the programming involving the switch inputs. The first line ensures that the alarm condition is normally off unless triggered. 2nd line turns the alarm on when the waterline in the sump is too low and the float switch opens. 3rd line shuts off the return pump. And the fourth just forces the pump to stay off for 1 minute, to prevent it from turning on and off really fast if the float switch is hovering around the on/off point.

The programming language only allows for the usage of two switch terms, Switch1 and Switch2 on the AC3. The Pro version allows more inputs. I could easily build a hardware multiplexer of sorts, just dont think there is any way the programming could handle it. Its a pretty simplistic programming language, nothing like assembly language or the like...

[jones57742]

Tristan:

I really appreciate your post as it will probably save me significant grief down the road.

I'm not familiar with that term. But what I can say is that they are a diaphragm type pump designed for very light duty application. They are designed to pump water but apparently will pump air as well, so they dont suffer from loosing prime from what I have seen.

Yes these are what I term positive displacement as whatever is in the discharge chamber will be pumped.


TR

[crazy loaches]

Ok, this will just be a log style entry, no real progress pics or anything. Just wanted to say that the tank has now been planted for a few weeks and my algae crew is in.

Unfortunately I do not have all the plants I intend to use in the scape yet, and its not a good time of year to be getting them online either. The plants I do have, I have far too few of. So I am using a lot of filler plants, some stems, mostly wisteria from the lfs.

When I first 'got it running' I jumped the gun a bit. It was before I had a solid dosing scheme. Also I was out of town a lot the first two weeks and didnt have the auto dosers running. As mentioned before I also had some CO2 problems, my bubble rate kept diminishing over a couple days time down to just about nothing. Needless to say I ended up with various forms of algae. BBA and BGA mostly, also a little bit of diatom, GSA, and thread.

I then did a blackout for a few days as I tried to sort things out. I got a fert routine down (I had an earlier post on that), built a new CO2 reactor, and I cut the lights down. Now, after being on this new routine for a couple weeks, everything is looking much better. BGA and BBA is gone (well tiny bits of BBA left in some places) and the only algae that still appears could be an issue is thread algae, which I had issues with in my last tank.

I am dosing per the dosing 4 posts up, co2 should be consistent ~30ppm (but still wasting some gas due to large bubbles) and my lighting scheme is as follows:

Bank1: 1:30 - 6:00 4.5hrs
Bank2: 5:00 - 9:30 4.5hrs

340W (1.4WPG): 1:30 - 5:00 3.5hrs (Bank1 only)
680W (2.8WPG): 5:00 - 6:00 1hr (Bank1 + Bank2)
340W (1.4WPG): 6:00 - 9:30 3.5hrs (Bank2 only)

Total light cycle: 1:30 - 9:30 8hrs

Since things have been looking good I am going to step the light back up a little, for now just adding an hour into the noon peak, but keeping the total light cycle at 8 (think baby steps):

Bank1: 1:30 - 6:30 5hrs
Bank2: 4:30 - 9:30 5hrs

340W (1.4WPG): 1:30 - 4:30 3hrs
680W (2.8WPG): 4:30 - 6:30 2hr
340W (1.4WPG): 6:30 - 9:30 3hrs

Total light cycle: 1:30 - 9:30 8hrs

And just for reference the series of tests I ran yesterday show:
Ammonia - 0ppm
Nitrite - 0.05ppm
Nitrate - 5ppm
Phosphate - 6ppm (or more)
KH - 3ppm
GH - 8ppm
pH - peaks at ~7.15 overnight and controller set to 6.1 with CO2 (daytime)
Temp - 79*F

The nitrite is a little concerning, its been like that the few times I've tested it in the last couple weeks. But at least its only the first off-zero color on the chart. Nitrates seem to be a little low to me, I'd feel more comfortable with at least 10ppm just so I know its not limiting at any given time. And phosphates seem a bit high... might try and see if I dose more nitrate if phosphate uptake will increase, if not I might cut the dose down. My tap has 1ppm phosphate.

And current stocking list:
-12(I think) Otos
-2 SAE's (I have 4 more that I couldnt catch in my 75g waiting until next attempt)
-1 Flag Fish (had a pair but 1 past the first week in the tank)
-8 BN plecos
-1-2 dozen cherry shrimp, that keep ending up in the sump

So I still have some issues to sort out, hopefully it will come together soon.

[chefkeith]

Any updates?

[wasserscheu]

Yeah, I was recently thinking of your tank too Tristan, wondering what it looks like now, how the automatic fert´s dosing goes, any algea? ... pics with your new camera please ...

[jones57742]

Folks:

Tristan and I occasionally communicate (yall just cannot believe the quantity of theory and experience which he brings to the table).

I believe that his working hours and his current duties have precluded his posting.

TR

[crazy loaches]

Hello all, long time no see

Just thought I would stop in and say the reason I havent been online in forever is that shortly after my last posts (spring/ 08) we packed up and moved. I didnt even have the behemoth fully up and running and had to tear it all down. Moving the tank was no easy chore. At the new house all my tanks still are empty, never set them back up. When we moved out we had a huge project of renovating our old house to sell, and I did most of the work myself. It was about 45min drive between houses to and same to work, and I work 12hr days, so I was rather busy for many months, actually until the end of the year. I was spending a lot of time with fish and I no longer had any time to devote to them. I might get back into it some time, but probably not until next year at the earliest. Just thought I'd stop in and say hi!

Oh and sorry no pics are working... I had everything hosted on my own webserver at my house, and when we moved, we lost high speed internet.

[wasserscheu]

very nice to hear from you. I missed you here. It's always the same, either too much work or not enough.
Good luck and still drop by here as your time allows.