Schistura mahnerti acclimation

[Dave C]

I'm a long time Discus keeper, but also had a few tanks with an assortment of loaches. Pete is bang on. It's called the grab 'n plop method. I didn't used to even float the bags in the tank. Usually the water in the bags is colder then in your tank, the pH has dropped in the bag or will drop the minute you open them and the water is disgusting. So the tank they're going into is warmer, higher pH and clean. It is not a shock to the fish. I used to land 200 Discus at a time using this method. You cut the top off the bag, reach your hand in, grab the fish and plop them in your tank. I have never lost a fish using this method. And then a guy like Pete or any big time fish mover gets hundreds of bags of fish at a time, if simply dumping the fish in the tanks led to death they'd know. I always would read hobbyists put down methods they'd never tried because they don't make logical sense. In this case logic fails. The fish are much better off getting out of the bag. Discus are considered by most to be delicate fish and they thrived with this method. Shipping is hard on fish, get them out of the bags.

[lotsoffish]

Holy cow, that's the first time Dave C has ever agreed with a word I said. He must be mellowing as he gets older.

I talked to mpeterb yesterday. He ripped open his fish bags and dumped them in his tank like I recommended he do. He said the loaches were eating 5 minutes later.

Here is why I don't acclimate. If I receive say a bag of clown loaches, for example, if I empty said bag into a pail within seconds their respiration rate sky rockets. Within a minute they are flying around stressing out. Within 5 minutes they are starting to gasp at the surface. within 10 minutes they are starting to roll over and die. It's because of PH crash along with oxygen depletion. Now if I start adding my water the ph goes up which increases the toxicity level of the ammonia in the water.

It just does not make sense to mess around during this crucial period of their long journey. I just remove them from that whole scenario and toss them in my nice clean well oxygenated tank and they simply swim down to the bottom and relax.
Sometimes if I listen very closely I can sometimes even hear one big sigh of relief.

(laughing) I made that last part up.

[Doc]

Each to their own , I can see the logic in what you are saying and why your method can relieve stressed fish from a potential health hazard , especially if dealing with large numbers of fish in one go. When I acclimatise fish I am only doing so with a few fish and they haven't had a prolonged journey in cramped quarters. I avoid any problems with pH crashes and ammonia spikes by eliminating the chance of this happening as best as I can with room , aeration and take measures to reduce or neutralise any other toxins such as Ammonia.

[mpeterb]

lotsoffish is right. I did add a couple of drops of ammo-lock to the bags as I ripped them open, just to try to alleviate any issues with the water for the 10 seconds it took me to grab the guys and put them in my water, I forgot to mention that, but the rest is spot on.

They're happy looking, rushing around, devouring brine shrimp and nibbling at wafers, swimming against current, diving into thickets of water sprite to grab out pieces of food - not only do they seem very healthy, they're the most entertaining fish I have right now.

[mpeterb]

Something I forgot - I'm not a looong time fish keeper, nor a scientist by any stretch, and I'm still learning a lot but what decided me on this non-acclimation method was this -

The water in those bags must've been toxic. (I wish I had tested it, next time) 2 days in a little bag with 3 fish per bag - it couldn't have been healthy - and with that in mind, why would the fish need to be acclimated out of it. It's like leaving a burn victim in an oven and slowly turning the heat down. They needed out and I had healthy water.

Just my 2 cents.

[Mark in Vancouver]

That's kind of a silly analogy, IMO, mpeterb, but whatever. Shipping water is not "toxic" despite the stress shipping places on fish. I think it is misleading to suggest that it is. The fish are not burn victims. While it's important to minimize transport time in bags, you're stretching the reality a bit.

I don't know if there is any point in "duking it out" over methods in fishkeeping. You'll follow the advice you choose with the results you incur. I think there is a lot of variability between species, shipping time, overall sensitivity, and numerous other factors.

The acclimation process is important to understand, whether someone chooses to follow it or not. It's basic fishkeeping 101 stuff. If you have success with the "plop" method, then fill your boots. There are many, many fish keepers (and loach specialists) here who would argue that acclimation is essential for a lot of the less resilient species.

I for one have seen osmotic shock occur in B. almorhae - and I'll say again, it sucks. Your water may be clean and well-oxygenated, but that is irrelevant if the temperature, pH or GH is seriously out of whack.

On a forum like this, we like to steer in the direction of "best" and "safest" and also "kindest" advice that we can deliver, not the least because so many new aquarists are reading these posts.

It's excellent that your fish arrived and adapted to the new tank. But I'm not comfortable dispensing advice here that is contrary to science and the experiences of so many other fish keepers - including a number who work in the import/export industry. It does come down to personal choice, of course, but I wouldn't put my name on an instruction that could directly cause osmotic shock.

So I'll see your 2 cents and call.

[chefkeith]

Discus are considered by most to be delicate fish and they thrived with this method.

But Discus might not need acclimation because they are always in soft acidic water. Compared to other fish species, the water parameters for discus are tightly controlled by shippers and buyers. I wouldn't expect them to ever have acclimation problems because of this universal knowledge.

Here is why I don't acclimate. If I receive say a bag of clown loaches, for example, if I empty said bag into a pail within seconds their respiration rate sky rockets. Within a minute they are flying around stressing out. Within 5 minutes they are starting to gasp at the surface. within 10 minutes they are starting to roll over and die. It's because of PH crash along with oxygen depletion. Now if I start adding my water the ph goes up which increases the toxicity level of the ammonia in the water.

This might happen, but I would disagree with the reasoning behind it.

The CO2 build up in the transport bag water acts as an Anesthetic. The respiration of the fish increases after releasing it from the bag because the fish are trying to expel the CO2 from it's blood. Any increase in water temp decreases the dissolved gases from the water. The increased temp, decreases CO2, raises the pH, and makes the ammonia toxic. That's why if you ever raise the temp, by floating the bag or by adding water, you should add ammonia detoxifiers 1st. Many people forget to detox the bag water 1st and that's where the problems usually start.

You've had great luck with the no acclimation method because you know what you are doing and that your source water is medium hardness. If your source water were really soft or really hard, your luck would vary.

[Mad Duff]

I suppose in the end it comes down to a case of "each to their own" with regards to a acclimatisation.

I have kept fish for 30 years and have always opened bags and added small amounts of tank water over a period of time (the longer the better), to date I have never lost a fish doing this and will continue to do it this way. I have helped out friends who used to import fish regularly and they used the same method as me and were advised to use this method by the seller of the fish in Singapore.

If people come on to this forum and ask for advice we are only to happy to oblige and offer as much info as we collectively can, we cannot make people take our advice but we will still offer it freely. My word of caution to anybody who gets fish and just rips the bag and releases them without any acclimatisation would be that just because it works once or even twice it may not go well every time.

[cybermeez]

Loaches are a tricky species. Environmental stress a major cause of of death in these fish when newly acquired. Three out of six of the people who wrote the newly published loach book (including one who is an importer and LFS owner) are advising you to drip acclimate. So, why chance it?

[Martin Thoene]

The float and dump method has worked for me for over 40 years. But I would only use that method for fish purchased from a local shop, with the associated short transit time and even then I put some of the new aquarium water in before I let them go.

I would most certainly make the acclimatization a longer process for shipped fish due to the build up of wastes in the bag. Much more chance of shocking the fish otherwize. When I brought fish over from England to Canada I stopped feeding 48 hours prior to bagging them up. I also put Zeolite in each bag to absorb Ammonia.

Martin.

[mickthefish]

what fish did you take back home bud?

mick

[Dave C]

The float and dump method has worked for me for over 40 years. But I would only use that method for fish purchased from a local shop, with the associated short transit time and even then I put some of the new aquarium water in before I let them go.

Funny thing, I did the opposite. For local fish I would float & acclimate more slowly since the fish weren't stressed to begin with, the water wasn't all funky and I wouldn't be getting hundreds of fish locally. But for shipments the opposite was the case. The point is that an increase in temp & an increase in pH isn't hard on the fish. At least not to the same degree that a sudden drop in temp/ph is. So it's all about preparing your tank for the new fish.

I'm not trying to sway anyone. I'm addressing the notion that it's a joke to acclimate fish this way. It's not. It's tried & tested and works just fine. The key to landing fish is to get them out of the bag & the crappy water as fast as possible. I've never lost a fish to this method and there are literally hundreds of breeders that do the same.

[chefkeith]

I've never lost a fish to this method and there are literally hundreds of breeders that do the same.

They know in advance what the water parameters are!
If you ever moved a fish from hard to soft water you'd kill the fish!

[Dave C]

They know in advance what the water parameters are!

So did I. Part of the buying process is understanding the water conditions that the fish are coming from.

[chefkeith]

Thats a big part that you left out. If you knew the water was hard, you wouldn't throw the fish into soft water now, would you?