New Kubotai's sick---HELP

[Mike Lang]

I just added 5 young Kubotai's to my clown loach 75 Saturday evening. They're beautiful fish, 2-3 inches, but one of them is scratching against the rocks and I'm concerned it may have parasites. LFS said they were wild caught. Aside from the scratching it seems to be fine, active, eating, no clamped fins or obvious external problems. I don't want to lose this fish or infect a healthy tank. Aside from quarentine, which I didn't do, obviously, any thoughts on medications and treatment???. I will remove him to medicate and hope that he hasn't already released something unpleasant into the tank. Please help........Tank contains live plants, clown loaches, Pimlodella Pictus cats. Also Ottos and Flying Foxes for algae duty.

[connor]

Hi Mike,

well .. first of all, no panic.
Removing him into quarantine is probably to late now - if he really carries a disease which needs medication it is already in your tank.

My fish are sometimes scratching themselves too - this can be anything from a single event every few hours to a wild scratching orgy that lasts for a minute (I suspect this is caused when some particle gets into their gills).

My advice would be to do nothing right now except monitoring your fish closely. If you actually see any ich dots appear or the scratching is spreading to the other fish it's time to act, though.

-Connor

[lotsoffish]

Well many times if a fish gets ammonia burned during shipping it will scratch it's opercula (gill plates) on surfaces. That alone is not really a problem. If the fish look healthy otherwise most times ammonia burn ends up healing much like a sun burn does.

Scratching can also indicate the presence of ick though and in your tank that could be a major problem seeing you have many fish that are highly sensitive to many of the ick medications on the market notably your loaches and the Pimelodus pictus.

The only thing I would do today is kick the water temps up to about 82. 82 will speed up the life cycle of ick and draw it out if you have it. Another words you will be making it worse, but at the same time you will be able to see it. If you do see it I would do about a 50% water change being careful to try to plunge your gravel well. Ick cysts fall to the bottom before multiplying so you will manually remove some. Then I would refill the tank with water at about 88 degrees, this will raise your tank temperature to about 85. Reset your heater to 85 toss any type of diatomaceous earth filter (like a magnum for example) on the tank. ick cysts will get caught in the diatomaceous earth. Don't forget to recharge this filter daily. Once again you can now just monitor things for a couple days. Many times you will find this alone will solve an ick problem in a lightly stocked tank.

If the ick appears to be consistent and will just not go away then you will prolly have to treat it with medication. In this case I would use a fairly safe medication called quinine sulfate. It is usually sold in a white powder form in capsules. I am not sure who makes this product or sells it in your neighborhood but it is usually available in pet shops for the treatment of marine fish. It works just fine on freshwater fish as well. At higher temps along with diatomaceous earth usually you will affect a cure after just one or two treatments using quinine sulfate.

Good luck and keep in mind, at this point you don't even know if you have any real problems so no need to really do anything other than kick up the temp yet.

[Mike Lang]

Thanks guys, you've got me thinking now,,,which is always helpful.. I HAVE seen my clowns scratch from time to time and nothing ever came of it, so perhaps this isn't a big deal, at least not yet. I hadn't thought about the ammonia burn, but due to circumstances beyond my control, these fish were in their bags much longer than they should have been, about 8 hours. Immediately after getting them home a family emergency required me to run back out the door and it was late that night before I could return home and get them into their tank, so it may well be that I caused the problem and it will clear up on it's own. In any case, you're right, no need to panic just yet. I will continue to observe things and follow your advice if indeed it does look like I brought something nasty home.....I did do a 60% water change yesterday, which is a weekly item and if need be I can do them daily. My own experience over the years has been that large and frequent water changes are the best first step any time something doesn't look right with either the tank or the fish. I've stopped and corrected a lot of problems that way without resorting to meds, which to me should be a last resort. As you say, it's often difficult if not impossible, to determine exactly what ailment your fish have simply by observation, so I hate playing Russian Roulette with drugs.

[helen nightingale]

Mike i hope your family emergency is now resolved, and also that your itchy fish has settled

[Mike Lang]

Thank you H Nightingale. My wife's mom, 91, took a fall while they were out walking. When I got home from the LFS, shortly after, I had an ambulance take her to the hospital for a check since she was in obvious pain and couldn't get out of the chair. Long story short, she has a mild concussion, some bruises and a sore back, but I think she'll be fine. She's a tough old lady..) The itchy fishy is another story. I'll have to keep an eye on them for a few days and see what happens. Hopefully, it isn't serious and will clear up in a few days on it;s own....I HATE to medicate!!

[Mike Lang]

Well folks, it does appear that I have Ich, well my fish do, not me, at least not yet..........I did a 60% water change, tore down my filters and cleaned them thoroughly, then jacked the temp up to 86 degrees saturday. Then I added "Quick Cure" a Malachite Green and Formalin medication at 50% of the recommended dosage, per instructions I found here and from a knowledgeable guy at my LFS. I also added one tablespoon of salt per 10 gallons to hopefully help the fish with their slime coat, although there seems to be a differing of opinions on whether or not to use salt at all, which is why I only used a small amount. So far the infestation doesn't seem too bad, only a few cysts on a couple of my loaches and they seem to be tolerating the temperature and meds alright as best I can tell. I will dose the tank again today and tomorrow do another large water change, wait a couple days and then repeat all the above........Any thoughts on this process???....One odd thing I'm seeing is that two of my clowns seem to have a rash of bumps on their heads that I didn't notice before. This isn't the white cysts that I would associate with Ich, it just looks more like a rash of bumps, but not white bumps like Ich. I don't know if this is Ich, or heaven forbid, something else!!.......Any insight would be greatly appreciated.....

[Tinman]

Ich is easy to cure. Work your tank up to 90 F and add salt over a couple of days. You can not kill it when the white spots are evident but you must increase the speed it lives to kill it all. I start at 400 ppm normally here so I add salt till I am at 3600 ppm which is a .3% solution. No meds, no worrys ,no ich. It is usually gone in one to two life cycles and I start reducing salt by 10% water changes daily after about 14-21 days if no sign exists and I have caught it soon enough.If you do awater change during treatment match the salt content to the new water so you do not reduce the ppm during treatment. Treat the whole tank and remove any plants as they will die or be damaged with the high salt. I have done this with over 30 loaches in a tank and no worrys.
93 F is as high as I have been here.The bumps may have been there all the time or a reaction to the Malachite green

[Mike Lang]

Thanks for the response Tinman. Yes, the one thing everything I read seems to agree on is high temps, so I'll do it. About the salt concentrations, you're talking in percentages and ppm's. I understand that well enough, but I don't know how to get there. I'm dosing tablespoons or teaspoons per gallon...........can ya help me to make the calculations?? It's a 75 gallon tank, probably closer to 70 gallons when you take into account gravel, rocks, etc..

[Tinman]

That depends on your local water strarting point but it is close to 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons or about twice your dosage now. I bought a TDS meter for 25.00 that tells me where I am at exactly. Your total disolved solids are everthing but you start from your test then add till you have added 3200 ppm to your base and you are perfect then ,no worrys.That makes it a .32 solution plus your natural content. That is how I solved the same dilema you face and how I solved it. Go to your local water service website and they should post your salinity etc to help you see your base ......Yuo need to be .3 or more to kill and not make tougher much like anti biotics....

[Mike Lang]

Got it Tinman...I'm onboard. Thanks ever so much. I really do work hard at this hobby and I pride myself on longivity in my fish, so when they get sick, which has been very rare over the years, it wrecks my day!! I've already started the med treatment, which is supposed to be a two day thing, if I believe the instructions, so I will give them the second and final dose tonight. If it works, fine, but regardless I will then clean the tank again and get going with the longer term salt treatment. As you've said, and others, it should be less stressful for the fish and with the longer treatment more likely to affect lasting results. I'll start looking for a TDS meter today.........Great having other hobbiests to talk to. I'm always suspicious of the LFS help, even when they appear to know what they're talking about. I always get the feeling they just want to sell me something, which of course is their job.....I'll keep up a progress report. Maybe it will help somebody else....Thanks!!

[Mike Lang]

Day 6 of the Ich wars. Discovered and attacked the little beasts on Saturday with a big WC and began chemical attacks with Quick Cure, a combination formalin and malachite green. I'm dosing at half the recommmended levels, one drop per two gallons. I jacked the tank temp up to 85 degrees, which is as high as I can maintain it without adding a second heater...it's winter, I live in the mountains and it's been cold this week. Dosed again Sunday and added some salt, not much, about 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons. Monday I observed. Fish seemed to be fine, no stress indications I can pick up on. I also dropped the water level to increase aeration from my aquaclear 500 and added an air stone. Tuesday another big WC and dosed again. Last night dosed yet again, which makes the 4th time. Still seeing a couple of cysts on my smallest clown, but other fish remain clear.... Tonight I'll dose one last time with the chemicals and then Friday do a big WC, add carbon to clear the chems and put in a second heater to take the temp up to about 88 degrees and begin increasing salt levels. I plan to maintain the high heat and salt for at least a week or more, as long as the fish seem to be handling it alright or until I'm convinced the problem has been resolved.... Near as I can tell neither the chems nor the heat is bothering my fish. The tank contains clowns, kubotai, pictus cats, a synodontus eupterus, siamese flying foxes and ottos. All fish are accounted for, except some of the ottos, but they're very small and I never see more than 6-8 of them at a time anyway so they may be fine as well..........more in a couple days as things develope. Thanks to all for your help and advice. I've kept fish for many years and consider myself a pretty good hobbiest, but I have been blessed with healthy fish for the most part and haven't had much experience dealing with Ich, so your input has been helpful!!

[shari2]

One odd thing I'm seeing is that two of my clowns seem to have a rash of bumps on their heads that I didn't notice before. This isn't the white cysts that I would associate with Ich, it just looks more like a rash of bumps, but not white bumps like Ich.

Do the bumps resemble this?



Pintius, who first noticed this posted it on the Waterwolves forum.
We discussed it here:
http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php ... es&start=0
but many of the links to pictures are broken, now.

Sounds like you've got a good handle on the ick treatment. Just remember it's important to continue to treat for several days after all the spots are gone. And I hope your wife's mom is feeling better.

[Mike Lang]

Hello Shari. YES, the small bumps on two of my bigger clowns DO look like that. I'm pretty such that isn't Ich. I see Ich on a couple of the other fish and they are much larger, single white cysts, as I'd expect. Have you seen this before Shari??....My wife's Mom is doing better physically, thank you for asking, but she is depressed about her situation. It must be hard being 91 years old and feeling yourself start to lose ground, but we'll all get there one day I guess.......What is this rash, if I can call it that??

[Mike Lang]

Hey again Shari. Checked out that link you sent...I missed it the first time in my excitement over the picture....I'll be damned, it's normal...and transient, which explains why I didn't notice it before. Guess the little buggers were just happy about Valentines day!! haha