A little off topic....

[andyroo]

Folks,
I must say it again: Thank you for this forum. Please tell the rest of the world's E-fora how you do it- an effective site on a specialist topic.

I've been trying to get real info, or at least intelligent responses i can use to further my own search, of a tortoise for three weeks on five different reptile E-groups, and have not got a single response but for the admin dude telling me that they don't/won't and i shouldn't expect responses on questions that they cannot provide definitive answers for.
ie: don't ask complicated questions.

WHAT???? Then what's the point of the forum if you've already published a care-sheet?
That's the magic of LOL. I can ask any sort of inane, esoteric foolishness and at least get a conversation and a couple of links.

I'd be interested to see the demographics (age, education, income, location etc...) of specific loach collectors as compared to SA or African cichlid, Chana, parrots (the birds), raptors and snakes and other reptiles. This info would actually be available through these very fora- now there's an easy grad-school project !!!!!

This and the one for Boston Whaler boaters are the only good ones i've used.

A... for Annoyed (and becoming a dreadful snob in my dotage)

[bullisbm]

I have found those same issues with most reptile sites. Most of the good ones don't seem to last too long.

I think it has to do with too many bad reptile owners and too many bad stores selling them. Reptile do no belong in chaing PSs period.

I think the fish 'trade' has a lot of that too, but it seems the loach's are more of a speciality fish that most chains don't carry. I know I have to go to true fish stores to get mine.

I seems to me that is you have to go out of your way to find something you want you already probably know more about it than any pet store.


Just my take

[Dutch]

Specialist animals require specialist care, but due to globalization specialist animals have become generally available and now are treated in a general way. A website like this is a small community for enthusiasts that will put in more effort than the average person. Most won't go through that kind of trouble, but will want to keep specialist species anyway as they are more interesting. I think this place is simply an exception.
Try the website of Moster Fish Keepers and you will see the opposite end of the scale, as far as fish are concerned. I visited it a few days ago and got a complete culture shock.

[mistergreen]

I'd be interested to see the demographics (age, education, income, location etc...) of specific loach collectors as compared to SA or African cichlid, Chana, parrots (the birds), raptors and snakes and other reptiles. This info would actually be available through these very fora- now there's an easy grad-school project !!!!!
)

huh? You topic switched to demographics all of a sudden.. It's part of you research? If you can set up an anonymous form somewhere, people are more likely to give you information. I can see people not divulging their age and income for the public to see.

[andyroo]

It being a connected world now, there should be enough truly interested folk in any specialist topic to allow for a dedicated forum, particularly in/on pets. Part of the problem is that there are 20 poor and excessively generalist attempts spreading out and discouraging those enthusiasts.
LOL is slowly drawing all the loach folk/knowledge together with specialized quality. It should be the model for how these sites (and the internet in general) should run.
A

[zmo63]

I agree Andyroo - I don't think I would be a loach person - or a fish person at all - without this site. I was just so excited to see a group of people interested in doing things right (and trying to figure out what 'right' means - and willing to change their minds based on new information), that I started keeping fish in a whole new way.

seems most fish forums either just don't have as many 'experts,' or they're just more interested in 'how many fish can i cram into my tank without them killing each other?"

...but I haven't visited them all. If anyone does know of another good forum for another type of fish, please share!

[Gary Stanton]

I have some African Cichlids and this forum has lots of answers although it's not a personable as LOL.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/index.php

[Dutch]

That the Cichlid forums are not as personal is logical when you realize the number of species of Cichlids that are known (a minimum of 1300, but could be 1900!). That's also why I doubt that there are enough interested and specialized folk for dedicated websites. Plus, I think there is a difference in the type of people drawn to Loaches compaired to (for instance) the more popular Cichlids. Or more accurate, there is a difference in the type of people drawn to keeping 'refined' tanks (for any species) compaired to those who just want to keep cool fish. Clown Loaches are kept in a different way by the people here than with those who frequent the Monster Fish Keepers boards. Those people are not even interested in 'refined' tanks, or guidelines, or that fish are more complex than they appear, and those people out-number people with more sense.

(I discussed the situation of one person who kept 30 Tropheus in a 40 gallon tank, and as respectful as I was the person I corrected simply lost interest in the discussion and moved on. )

[Gary Stanton]

That the Cichlid forums are not as personal is logical when you realize the number of species of Cichlids that are known (a minimum of 1300, but could be 1900!). That's also why I doubt that there are enough interested and specialized folk for dedicated websites. Plus, I think there is a difference in the type of people drawn to Loaches compaired to (for instance) the more popular Cichlids. Or more accurate, there is a difference in the type of people drawn to keeping 'refined' tanks (for any species) compaired to those who just want to keep cool fish. Clown Loaches are kept in a different way by the people here than with those who frequent the Monster Fish Keepers boards. Those people are not even interested in 'refined' tanks, or guidelines, or that fish are more complex than they appear, and those people out-number people with more sense.

(I discussed the situation of one person who kept 30 Tropheus in a 40 gallon tank, and as respectful as I was the person I corrected simply lost interest in the discussion and moved on. )

I keep Frontosas as well as Clown Loaches, separate tanks. I too note that on some of the cichlid sites that they want to keep one or two Clowns in with their Frontosas to "keep the tank clean." I have referred people to this site and have given up trying to educated them.

The site I advised is helpful for dealing with Africans in particular but you are right about most fish enthusiasts only wanting to fill their tank with as many species as they can. I got over that a long time ago.

[Dutch]

Those frontosas are big fish, but very nice. I would like to (somewhere in the distant future) keep Tropheus, but that would have to be in a 200+ gallon tank so I can keep a decent group.

[Gary Stanton]

Those frontosas are big fish, but very nice. I would like to (somewhere in the distant future) keep Tropheus, but that would have to be in a 200+ gallon tank so I can keep a decent group.

I've been keeping fish for 40+ years and Africans and Clown loaches are two I have never kept. I was torn between Tropheus and Fronts, Tropheus are awesome. The Fronts are much slower and not as agressive than most cichlids. I only have six but they will fill the tank for sure.

I have fifteen Clowns in a 100 gallon and in a year or two will get a 300 gallon for them. This will be quite the project since I intend to put a couch under the tank because of space constraints.

THEN I will get Tropheus. At least 25 and keep them in the 100 gallon. My current setup has two 100's in one oak stand, one on top of the other .

[Diana]

The one general aquarium site that I have settled on is Fish Geeks.
All the others seem to also be geared toward putting people down who ask questions.
I have not really found an aquatic plant site that I like.

[Martin Thoene]

This is an interesting thread and thanks for the positive comments about LOL and the Forums.

I think the idea of a "different" kind of people being into Loaches has merit. Certainly I've noticed over the years that a large number of loach-owners are also cat-owners so there's obviously a certain commonality there.

LOL has been lucky in that it has consistently had a core of usually relatively long-time fishkeepers who went past the "community" tank stage a long time ago. They're generally very serious about the care of their fish but also most often display a rather good sense of humour too.
I think that is a large part of the strength within LOL. We're able to put across knowledge in an acceptable, palatable way. Mixing in a bit of humour and not taking ourselves too seriously is an important ingredient in the success of the site IMO.

The core of excellent people morphs over time, but stays strong and the moderation team are all good friends off-forum. I have to tell you the ones that I've met face to face are all extremely nice people in "real" life. This creates a mutually supportive team that rigorously defends the site against disruptive influences and supports the stance we have taken for a certain way of keeping certain species, even though sometimes we might personally question a few of the details.

This self-examination, constant study and observation leads to gradual increase in our overall understanding of these fishes' needs and creates something that is non-static in nature.

I don't know of anyone here who thinks they know it all or who won't admit they were wrong if someone else disproves something they have believed before. We're rather humble in that way and accepting of new input from new members. We truly don't know it all.

There are other sites out there where hubris seems to reign supreme. I was approached a few years ago by one site that is linked with a major magazine. "Invited" to become one of their mentors so to speak......specifically on Loaches. When my naturally humorous nature surfaced and I insisted that linking to information on LOL was a viable way of answering queries I was told that I would be expected to be exclusive to that site and not out-link because members might migrate......plus I was supposed to be deadly serious all the time. When I explained that was self-defeating and not how the Internet is supposed to work and contrary to how most other Fora work I was met with a "My way or the Highway" stance from the Female webmaster.
My raised thumb beside the Highway got me a lift from a Big-rig that bought me straight back here.......not that I'd actually left anyway. My raised middle-finger got me the bum's rush out of any possibility of being asked again

That site's "Bottom Dwellers" Forum seems to have tumbleweeds blowing through it now ....oops! there goes another one....... whereas LOL has gone from strength to strength .........as I told the lady it would. It is natural for people to gravitate toward the epicentre of knowledge on a given subject. If the info is given out in a welcoming and acceptable way then it (hopefully) gets taken on-board to the benefit of our fishy friends which is why the site is here in the first place.

Like Diana, I like Fishgeeks. It is a generally good multi-discipline site and you'll note that within its section that covers loaches there will be numerous links to LOL. It's accepted because the people who run the site are secure in the knowledge that their membership is huge and one specialist site is not going to lose them a very big proportion of that membership even if everyone migrated over that's into Loaches. The truth is (as I pointed out to the other Webmaster) that fishkeepers are somewhat transient on the Internet.......heck I'll even tell people to get several opinions.......but in numerous cases you'll see people on other forums telling others to trust what they read here.

I call that referal by proven quality. Everyone here should be proud because every little gem of knowledge gets incorporated in time into the site. You ALL make those contributions. Every observation or report adds to the sum of knowledge. Keep up the good work....everyone.

Martin.

[Dutch]

Nice Martin, I enjoyed reading that during my early morning coffee.

This self-examination, constant study and observation leads to gradual increase in our overall understanding of these fishes' needs and creates something that is non-static in nature.

I don't know of anyone here who thinks they know it all or who won't admit they were wrong if someone else disproves something they have believed before. We're rather humble in that way and accepting of new input from new members. We truly don't know it all.

This is very true. I work as a trainee at a department that is known and respected internationally for its work, but at the same time its one of the most social and open minded labs I've come across. Even though I'm just a trainee my opinion is valued and I'm allowed to choose how I want to approach my research myself. When I started that resulted in me criticising the work of a PhD, but my criticism was taken seriously and has resulted in a slightly different view on the subject.
And last week we had a Karaoke-drink!

[Mark Janssen]

I to have a loache site with a forum. I forword most people here non-dutch for sure since there ain't much to see on my site. Haven't spend much time on my species index lately, but i only make ones of the populair loaches, not like here where every loach gets wat they deserve (a cool page about themselfs).

Loaches is just THE site voor loaches... on other forums i use my site in the signature and there are still a lot of general forums that don't want that and feel that tey could lose members even to me with a very small forum with 6 members Less is more i think, keeps me from having to moderate