Breeding Chromobotia macracanthus

[oliv]

youv'e lost me oliv.?

mick

I shall is cleverer and I shall keep silent, in any case it does not do to you of honour

[janma]

Why not honor nature and stop playing god?

[Martin Thoene]

Poetry Janne....poetry.

Martin.

[mistergreen]

I agree that hybridizing feels a bit wrong but you have to look at it from a historical point of view.. Humans have been doing this since we started to settle down and farmed. We do it to livestock, and plants to increase productivity and more recently to pets like hybrid wild cats, or even 'bettas splendens'.

[Mark in Vancouver]

Having done it does not excuse the practice. Also, since hybridized loaches are of no benefit to either the hobby or as food, it's a little trickier to justify. There is an element to the so-called "research" that I find extremely dubious. Like the folks who genetically modify glow-in-the-dark rabbits and so on.

Your point is...?

[janma]

I agree that hybridizing feels a bit wrong but you have to look at it from a historical point of view.. Humans have been doing this since we started to settle down and farmed. We do it to livestock, and plants to increase productivity and more recently to pets like hybrid wild cats, or even 'bettas splendens'.

Burning people as witches was done too in the past, should we start doing it again? This would be considered sorcery in the good ol' days.

[Doc]

I agree that hybridizing feels a bit wrong but you have to look at it from a historical point of view.. Humans have been doing this since we started to settle down and farmed. We do it to livestock, and plants to increase productivity and more recently to pets like hybrid wild cats, or even 'bettas splendens'.

Still doesn't make hybridising Loaches right though does it?! History is not a factor in this case. It is about fish ethics , actually it is just ethics in general and to me and perhaps a good few others there seems to be a lack of ethics here.
I still fail to understand how someone can think that the hobby would be better off with hybridised fish. There is no logic to it. They benefit no-one in the long term.

[Blue]

Doc, the only people who benefit from the production of hybrids are those who sell them to people who fail to realize the truth in it. Customers are in turn blinded by the love of their fish saying no matter how the fish looks, it's okay to buy them which in turn yet again promotes the sale of hybrids. This is a revolting thought.

[Ashleigh]

I have been following this post over the past few days, and most have stated their disagreement with hybrid loaches due to them not being ‘how nature was intended’ and rightly so in my opinion, but no one has thought about looking at the larger picture here. I have tried to refrain from saying anything, it is a topic that I find most sickening, but I will say my piece….

Why are some species of loach eg Leptobotia for one, are not allowed to be imported into the UK? Are we all in agreement that a fish species geographical location boundary is generally related to temperature tolerance? Obviously other factors will be influencing but temperature tolerance is a key big player.

Say Oliv managed to produce some sort of hybrid species that was able to tolerate our cooler climate, (as he has stated before that he wanted to create something that would be adaptable to the cooler temperatures in Russian winters) and say that there is a market for the hybrid he produces, what happens if those fish keepers that just buy fish for the look, and lack of research purchase said fish and then for some reason or another can’t keep it and see the option of releasing it into the rivers/streams of the UK. You bring in the whole argument of an invasive hybrid species. Yes this is jumping the gun a bit. But it is a possibility. Plus the fact that I doubt he is going to fully know the species adaptability and tolerance before it goes on sale, I mean even some of the species that have been in the hobby for years, very little is known about them.

Oliv you clearly have the experience and knowledge to do some good for those species whose numbers are decreasing in the wild due partly to demand from the aquatic trade for them. Why can you not use your knowledge to try and help decrease fishing pressure on these species instead of just playing about with genetics of an organism?

I know there is probably a factor of money in here, ‘creating pretty fish that people want’ but the fact is that people generally want pure species like the chain loach for one because they already think they are colourful enough and have markings that are beautiful and I certainly think so, and considering some species numbers are dwindling partly due to aquatic trade demand, you can help and I don’t see why you would not want to put your breeding efforts into that? Its not like these species come cheap either, around my area we are looking between £6-10 for one chain loach.

Mistergreen, forgive me, but I do not understand this statement you had made; Hybrids might actually relieve wild populations.

How so? Oliv has the capability to breed pure species, why concentrate on hybrids? They will not be relieving wild populations if they managed to somehow mix with wild populations. If bred to be a stronger more adaptable species, one would guess that competition could wipe out natural populations. It certainly has happened in salmon populations.

I just want to say that it a complete pity and disappointment to me, that someone has the capability to help some wild species, when infact all they seem interested in, is playing around, trying to create something new that people have not seen before. I can say for myself and probably for the large proportion of the people on this forum, that we are here because we care about loaches… just as they are…. Without any changes or modifications.


This in my opinion is a complete pity, and a waste of good knowledge.

Ashleigh

[Mad Duff]

Why are some species of loach eg Leptobotia for one, are not allowed to be imported into the UK? Are we all in agreement that a fish species geographical location boundary is generally related to temperature tolerance? Obviously other factors will be influencing but temperature tolerance is a key big player.

Say Oliv managed to produce some sort of hybrid species that was able to tolerate our cooler climate, (as he has stated before that he wanted to create something that would be adaptable to the cooler temperatures in Russian winters) and say that there is a market for the hybrid he produces, what happens if those fish keepers that just buy fish for the look, and lack of research purchase said fish and then for some reason or another can’t keep it and see the option of releasing it into the rivers/streams of the UK. You bring in the whole argument of an invasive hybrid species. Yes this is jumping the gun a bit. But it is a possibility. Plus the fact that I doubt he is going to fully know the species adaptability and tolerance before it goes on sale, I mean even some of the species that have been in the hobby for years, very little is known about them.

If this were the case Defra would probably jump in with both feet and ban the importation of most loach species unless it could be proved 100% that they are wild caught and not hybridised species capable (in theory) of living in our waterways.

With the almost certain ban coming into force with regards to certain channa and cyprinid species this sort of thing has the potential to hit the British aquatics enthusiast very hard

[Doc]

Well said Ashleigh. I have said similar on other threads on here and on the forum I frequent more or less the same.
When dealing with this type of scenario we have no way of knowing the outcome of a particular hybrid. As more are bred the likelyhood of them becoming fertile and able to breed increases , while still remote that it can happen it may well do so. If these fish are able to escape to the wild (or are released) they can cause real damage to native and endemic species.
If they can breed they could possibly outcompete native fish , they could pass on pathogens or indeed cause pathogens to change or mutate. What are the long term effects of the hormone inducement techniques on fish that live decades or even a couple of generations or hundreds of generations?

Tampering with nature never has a positive result.

I say again Oleg , you really should put your talent to a better use. You have shown you can breed 'true' Chromobotia and others. Use your talent and time in not only hormone induced breeding programmes but try to get the fish to breed naturally... That would make you more money for life than making monsters in a thin veiled guise of a Dr Moreau like being that only gets you a bit of money now.

[helen nightingale]

Ashleigh, thanks, you said what i was trying to say but failing.

Mad Duf, i think you have a very valid point. my concern is that DEFRA and the UK are very good at gold-plating EU regualtions, so here we will have everything its possible to ban, banned, and then some. other countries most likely with brush the regulations under the carpet, as they have other things that concern them more than laws. and i have no idea how strict legislation on things like this are in countries like Russia

[Martin Thoene]

There's obvious concern over the legislative situation in the UK, but we must remember that there is potentially more risk from escapee hybrids into eco-systems in warmer countries. There's potential for a lot of damage to natural fauna from escapes or irresponsible dumping of aquarium fish, let alone having hybrid fish who's impact may be less understood.

This matter is of international concern within the hobby.....

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/p ... ?news=1687

Martin.

[ckk125]

i've also been following this thread ever since it started...

Im on the fence with this...but man made hybridization will not be stopped unless certain rules are made to stop it.-like human cloning.

Oliv is a fish breeder and his mind is mainly focussed on making money and earn a living...legally, there is nothing wrong. his knowledge, his skill and his fish.

Flowerhorns, Arowanas, rtc, tsn, and glofish are some of the man made fish and look how much money was made from it?

It will not stop unless a rule is made. Sometimes in this world, money talks.

[Ashleigh]

i've also been following this thread ever since it started...

Im on the fence with this...but man made hybridization will not be stopped unless certain rules are made to stop it.-like human cloning.

Oliv is a fish breeder and his mind is mainly focussed on making money and earn a living...legally, there is nothing wrong. his knowledge, his skill and his fish.

Flowerhorns, Arowanas, rtc, tsn, and glofish are some of the man made fish and look how much money was made from it?

It will not stop unless a rule is made. Sometimes in this world, money talks.

Just because there is no rule, does not justify it, nor make it right.

Hybrid organisms that are created by man for no reason but for pure pleasure is completly wrong. The fish and creatures in our world are here the way they are due to many many years of adaptation and evolution to suit their specific environment. Playing around with genetics with the possibility of them spawning/breeding with natural populations could have the possibility of clearing out complete populations in areas and possibly entire species.

Granted, in studying the genetic effects of salmon aquaculture on wild salmon populations, it is very worrying indeed what the consequences are if these fish escape-which they do. The fish are bred for our convenience to have a farm adapt suitability-yes we can see why they do it, but it does not make it right.

Oliv has capabilities to bring positive changes in helping to conserve pure species, and I wish he could see it, if you have a talent you should put it to good use. You are right, they are no rules saying what Oliv is doing is wrong, but many aquarists, that will be the ones purchasing and obviously giving Oliv their money disagree with it, few people want hybrids in the trade, the fact is the many inexperienced don't know better, they just see something different to have.

Ashleigh