Clown loaches **slight problem 12/4/08**

[Ashleigh]

Hey Piggy 4, Ive chucked the box away, only have the actual bottle.

It says; calculate vol of water
Shake bottle and measure most appropriate way
Optimise aeration
Remove carbon and Zeolite from filter (we have none to begin with)
Fully dissolve and the distribute evenly across aquarium
After 7days redose, or use another fish treatment-didnt even get to 7days

I didn't even full dose just realising... bottle says treats 110gal, and theres about 10ml left so probably dosed 80%, doesn't mention anything about harmful to loaches or other sensitive fish.

I do have a quarentine tank.... its the chances of catching the little buggernow-water is still as murky as before I can only see about 3inches deep into the tank. Guess I just wanted to prevent it passing from one to another by just dosing the actual tank. I don't have much experience when it comes to fungal problems cause Ive never had any before this.

Huge panic attack when I saw them this morning, the water being murky I was able to deal with, but everyone gulping at the water surface, that freaked me should have done what I thought last night but I was tired.....

Guess it boils down to keeping an eye on things. Did a retest of water there, ammonia is slightly green, but closer to the yellow representing 0, nitrite is slightly purple but closest to the blue, again representing 0. I really hope this doesn't spike

Everyone is nice an active, larger Botia are out-thats abnormal, they usually don't come out until the evening, they don't look overly stressed which is good though

If it is bacterial, how often should the water changes be? Its pretty easy to change the water, 50% only takes 30mins, or should I decrease it to say twice at 20%?????

Ashleigh

[Ashleigh]

Doc,

That makes sense, but I have not done any water changes for 4-5days because I was using this treatment. I had the same idea with nitrates being to high but they check out at 20ppm
I have stuck a white marine white light on I think it was 2weeks ago, possibly more.... but its only on first thing in the morning to check everyone and give breakfast, and then on in the evening from around 5 till 11ish.

Tank is opposite a window about 5metres away, but we don't get direct sunlight from it, plus with the welsh weather, we hardly ever get sun

Ashleigh

[ckk125]

How about the temperature?

Any chance of the heater being faulty and cause the temperature to spike?

Are you sure that the ammonia is 0?hard to believe when the water is as murky as this..

Just my opinion..good luck.

[Ashleigh]

Temp is stable at 28 degrees c . Ammonia I have just retested as above and its coming up with a slight hint of green but closer to yellow... start of a spike?


Ashleigh

[Ashleigh]

Ammonia starting to register at 0.25.... great

Ashleigh

[Doc]

This could be the start of something then. When did you last de-mulm the filters? It may be worth giving the media a quick once over and see if anything is wrong there. I presume there have been no deaths , no power outages etc. Don't feed and do another water change. I would look at smaller changes done once or twice daily , say 10% and see how things go. Worth adding zeolite etc for the time being to counteract any further problems with a raised ammonia level.

[Ashleigh]

Hi Doc,

I have two externals on the tank, one was 'serviced' near 2weeks ago, the other has been at least a month/month and half. They are only really looked at if the flow has dropped considerably, other than that its one everyother month if you get what I mean...
I have 4 internals, two rinsed every other week unless flow has dropped.

No deaths at all, a few rainbows were very very close this morning but as soon as I got the fresh water in, they were fine, started to recover as water was being added.

I took a glass of the water from the tank to test while the water was draining-wanted to get the change done asap, nothing showed up, which surprised me judging how they were reacting.

No feed has been given for days now-they dont even seem interested, I mean they beg every night even if its not feeding night-none of that even now, and its only since I added that stubid treatment that they have stopped.

Il have a check at the filters once I return from work, don't have time now.

Tank is looking a little less cloudy at the bottom of the tak, can see 5inches deep , still murky in the upper parts.

This all comes back to my hate of using chemical treatments in the first place unless I need to

Will do a water change tonight, say 20% depending what these readings bring up.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone , il get pic's tonight again when Im home, maybe someone will see a difference cause Im finding it hard to.

Ashleigh

[wasserscheu]

Hi Ashleigh,

Only contribution I can make, is some experience with a non-malachite ich.-med. (was supposed to be easier on the loaches than Malachite).

Instructions said, remove organic material as good as possible, as medication may increase the growth of the good bacteria.
In the loach tank I did (with tears in my eyes) remove my "black gold" and trimmed most plants - I was fine.

In the Q-tank, I only had a small filter, so did not bother to clean (did not want to destabilize the small tank with that small filter) result was the loss of 6 rainbows, that imho sufficated, as the bacteria used too much O2. My water was far less foggy than yours, actually just a bit foggy (I could still look through the small tank).
6 other rainbows and Oto´s survived. They all appeared to hold back (avoid) breathing. Some Rainbows were out of balance, a 85% waterchange got them back to normal immideately.

Btw my tapwater has 0,2 Ammonia and 5 Nitrate, so perhaps your ammonia comes from the tapwater?

Even though, it may be very risky advice, I´d clean all filters (not clinically clean - just remove mud, but leave some of the slimecoat on the filtersubstrate) - It may be wrong but I assume a bacteria bloom and the source of new bacteria may be the filter (perhaps some "stuff" of that medication is still held in the filter? perhaps calling the supplier again may get more info?). Bacteria can multiply very fast - waterchanges may not be sufficient enough. Make sure plenty of O2 is in the water - whatever it takes...

All the best (and hoping I did not tell you wrong...)

[Ashleigh]

Well Im just home from work. Had left instructions with the other half to do another change if things ended up like they did this morning-he hasn't needed to.

Fish are all active, can see a little deeper into the tank, near to the back in some parts so my be a sign that its clearing, Il post pic's again in a while.

Will keep you all updated, may do a water change later, along having a look at the filters once Ive had a look at those water readings again

On a side note, any one have an idea what to treat a slight fungal area?? Im not convinced using interpet again.....

Thanks again

Ashleigh

[chefkeith]

That's a bacterial bloom. The Interpet probably wiped out all the gram positive bacteria, and that gave the gram negative bacteria an opportunity to bloom. It's not nitrifying bacteria, which is also gram negative. It's a free floating kind of gram negative bacteria. All bacteria consume oxygen (except for anaerobic kind) and can deplete the O2 content in the water, which is what makes blooms like this dangerous for fish.

IMO, anti-bacterial meds should never be used in main tanks. As you just found out, there is a delicate microbial balance in the aquarium. So in the future, only use anti-bacterial meds in quarantine tanks. Best option is to run a UV sterilizer on the main tanks. With those Boesmani rainbows you'll probably want to invest in a UV sterilizer anyway because they can get columnaris rather easily.

[Ashleigh]

That's a bacterial bloom. The Interpet probably wiped out all the gram positive bacteria, and that gave the gram negative bacteria an opportunity to bloom. It's not nitrifying bacteria, which is also gram negative. It's a free floating kind of gram negative bacteria. All bacteria consume oxygen (except for anaerobic kind) and can deplete the O2 content in the water, which is what makes blooms like this dangerous for fish.

IMO, anti-bacterial meds should never be used in main tanks. As you just found out, there is a delicate microbial balance in the aquarium. So in the future, only use anti-bacterial meds in quarantine tanks. Best option is to run a UV sterilizer on the main tanks. With those Boesmani rainbows you'll probably want to invest in a UV sterilizer anyway because they can get columnaris rather easily.

That makes a lot of sense Thank-you Chefkeith. So what exactly does the gram negative do? I assume its harmless?

Water tests have not prought back anything out of the ordinary, same as before-all good going to skip the water change tonight I think, I can see my heaters at the back of the tank now !

Have one rainbow who I think has columnaris-came home with it like that. Didnt realise until it was out of the box-they were boxed up before I had a good look. Its in a tank of its own at the moment, not to sure what to do with it, treatment wise, no idea either, again first time Ive seen it in the flesh. Kind of restricted over here regarding what treatments we have.

Ashleigh

[mistergreen]

gram negative bacteria include pathogenic bacteria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gram_negative_bacteria

antibiotics like Erythromycin (maracyn I) will kill gram negative bacteria while leaving gram positives alone... I believe nitrafying bacteria are gram positive so Erythromycin is safe for the tank.

But I wouldn't treat a bacteria bloom with antibiotics either. Just frequent water changes & a UV sterilizer will do the trick.

[Ashleigh]

gram negative bacteria include pathogenic bacteria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gram_negative_bacteria

antibiotics like Erythromycin (maracyn I) will kill gram negative bacteria while leaving gram positives alone... I believe nitrafying bacteria are gram positive so Erythromycin is safe for the tank.

But I wouldn't treat a bacteria bloom with antibiotics either. Just frequent water changes & a UV sterilizer will do the trick.

I never said I wanted to treat the bacterial bloom? Think the good ol, leave as will be worked. As of this morning.....




Still murky, but a big difference from yesterday morning

Big thank-you to everyone who pitched in, little scary coming down to something you havn't actually had a problem with before

So how would one go about treating suspected columnaris? Growths from upper lip on mouth, starting to spread in line with pectoral fin (one side only). Fish is very active, feeding well. Pic to follow...

Thanks again

Ashleigh

[chefkeith]

So what exactly does the gram negative do?

Ashleigh

Gram positive or negative is only a classification,

I'm not prepared to debate what they all do though. There's much confusion on what does what.

[Ashleigh]

Columnaris or just plain ol fungal??? Pic taken when fish were just added to tank, it had worsened a lot more since. Fish put down last night, poor thing could hardly breath

Plus side, the clown who was initially being treated before all this is all healed up and as greedy as ever at dinner last night

Tank clear as ever, water change last night, still clear this morning.

Happy days

Thanks again everyone


Ashleigh