Could someone please tell me if this Clown is skinny?

[ey]

I have 6 clown loaches (2"-2.5") in my community 300L tank.

One of them have grown a lot (the alpha clown) while the others have grown too, in length, height and girth. There is one clown that is of exception, this clown's body colour is not the typical orange as my other 5 clowns.

I have posted some photos of my clown loaches on Coppermine (link below), you can see in most of the photos there is one particular clown loach that has a pale white body, whereas the others have a orange body.

You can see the photo more clearly by clicking on the thumbnail to expand the pic.

Clown Loaches - look for the skinny one with pale white body

The pale one is on the left, with the cories blocking his face Notice his skin colour isnt as dark orange as the others.

A good shot of him - he is on the left by himself

He is on the far right, next to the Yoyo loaches

Here, he is under the biggest clown loach, can see the clear size difference

Of the 2 clowns in the middle of the pic, he is the bottom one, notice the clear colour contrast

All the clowns are not picky when it comes to feeding, they eat everything I feed them, but the "possibly skinny clown" is a bit finicky when it comes to certain foods.

I took the clown in question back to the LFS and asked them what they thought and if they would consider taking him back. They said its definitely not skinny as they've seen lots of skinny clowns before and the one I have is no where near as skinny, since the body isnt sunk in one bit.

They reckon the clown loach that I suspect is skinny, could just be the runt out of the pack and I should just keep him as long as its eating and behaving normally. I hope this is the case, I asked Emma on one of the threads and she has 3 clowns that she has kept for roughly 13 years but all 3 are different sizes, so hopefully this may explain why the pale white clown is in fact, just a slow grower and not infected with worms.

Would appreciate any advice and like to know what you think. Thanks!

[Emma Turner]

Hi ey,

I've had a look at your photographs, but unfortunately I'm finding it a little diffcult to tell. Do you think you could you try and take some more shots, preferably a little closer-up, of the loach in question? I wouldn't worry about the colour, as I have seen these differences in many Clowns, mine included. It is not always a sign of ill health. But....from what I can tell from those pics, that fish is considerably thinner than the others. I thought I could see some sunken-ness (?) behind the eyes in one of the shots, but that may be my eyes deceiving me. Even though you say this fish can be a bit finicky with certain foods, would you still say it eats fairly well?

Can you get hold of Levamisole hydrochloride where you are? It may be worth treating with this just in case.

Emma

[ey]

Hi ey,

I've had a look at your photographs, but unfortunately I'm finding it a little diffcult to tell. Do you think you could you try and take some more shots, preferably a little closer-up, of the loach in question? I wouldn't worry about the colour, as I have seen these differences in many Clowns, mine included. It is not always a sign of ill health. But....from what I can tell from those pics, that fish is considerably thinner than the others. I thought I could see some sunken-ness (?) behind the eyes in one of the shots, but that may be my eyes deceiving me. Even though you say this fish can be a bit finicky with certain foods, would you still say it eats fairly well?

Can you get hold of Levamisole hydrochloride where you are? It may be worth treating with this just in case.

Emma

Hi Emma,

Thanks for having a look and replying. When I first read your "unfortunately", I thought you were going to say the clown has skinny disease!

I'll try and get better shots tomorrow, this little one is a bit shy and like the other clowns, spends most of the day hiding.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find anywhere here in Australia that sells Levamisole readily. EdenAU, a member here on LOL suggests that I may be able to find it through vets for greyhound dogs, I haven't had any luck finding any and will ask her if she can help.

So even if the clown loaches aren't affected by skinny disease, it is okay to treat the whole tank with Levamisole?

Maybe the only shots I see of cases where clown loaches have a sunken body are really severe cases and my clown may have it, but its in the early stages? I honestly havent noticed any sunken-ness to him, but I definitely agree that he is much skinnier compared to the rest.

You know your clown that is around 13 years old that is only 3.5" (if I recall correctly) - did he grow in height and girth during those 13 years? I just want to work out the differences between not growing at all and slow growing. Basically if my clown hasnt grown in length, height and girth, then that may be an issue, IF your 3.5" clown hasn't grown as much as the other two 13 year old clowns in length, but has grown in girth and height over that time.

With regards to eating, this skinnier one definitely eats adequately during feeding. While the other clowns eat anything that moves (!), this clown is still getting his fair share of food. He is finicky with some of the dried foods (pellets, wafers) where some days he'll eat these and other days he'll smell it and then leave it. However, he loves frozen bloodworms and brine shrimp and never lets these get away!

I hope that made sense!

[ey]

One more question - is skinny disease transmittable? I was worried that if this clown was infected with the dreaded skinny disease, then that could spread to all the other clowns and even the yoyo loaches too.

But the LFS assured me that the clown I have doesn't have skinny disease and keeping him for the time being will not transmit anything to the other clowns.

Do you know where I could see photos of clowns with skinny disease? I couldn't find too many online.

[mikev]

Errrh, ey,

you may be approaching this from the wrong direction. What is "skinny disease", really? It is a symptome of weight loss, not a disease. Majority of cases seem to be caused by tapeworms, but there are other causes.

Now, if you have a fish with a tapeworm inside that drains it from "lifeforce", the appearance of the fish depends on the "balance of power": how healthy is the fish otherwise, how large is the worm, how long was the worm inside,... The appearance thus would range from a very advance case (with ribs sticking out) to no symptomes at all. A photo of an advanced case will not help you to diagnose your fish. Likewise, seeing a photo of your fish may only allow one to state that it is likely infected, but it is never possible to state that it is parasite-free.

A better approach is to simply consider all Botia's as possibly infected, and treat them. If your fish still looks skinny and not improving a couple of months later, then you start thinking about other possible causes.

On Pale color: this is not the Yellow which *may* be connected to infections. This seems to be a common pale variety instead.
On LFS guarantees: ask them how do they know. Did they treat their fish at all, and if yes, with what.
On Transmission to other fish: generally tapeworms require intermediate hosts. BUT: <1> I'm not certain that this is an absolute truth, and <2> "skinny disease" may be a symptome of a different type of infection, which is transmittable.

hth

[Vancmann]

hi ey, sometimes, the clown on the lowest of the pecking order are not happy and do not eat well. There is a good possibility he is the lowest rank. He may still be healthy; he even looks healthy. Most if not all sick fish or fish with parasite would not be so erect on the fins. If he new to your tank and is picky, feed him what he likes. Thew will love blood worms and live or frozen brine shrimp. From what I could make out in the picture, the fish closest to the glass on the right is the one you are talking about?? and does not look like it has the "skinny". It just looks like it is not eating as much as the others.

[ey]

Errrh, ey,

you may be approaching this from the wrong direction. What is "skinny disease", really? It is a symptome of weight loss, not a disease. Majority of cases seem to be caused by tapeworms, but there are other causes.

Now, if you have a fish with a tapeworm inside that drains it from "lifeforce", the appearance of the fish depends on the "balance of power": how healthy is the fish otherwise, how large is the worm, how long was the worm inside,... The appearance thus would range from a very advance case (with ribs sticking out) to no symptomes at all. A photo of an advanced case will not help you to diagnose your fish. Likewise, seeing a photo of your fish may only allow one to state that it is likely infected, but it is never possible to state that it is parasite-free.

A better approach is to simply consider all Botia's as possibly infected, and treat them. If your fish still looks skinny and not improving a couple of months later, then you start thinking about other possible causes.

On Pale color: this is not the Yellow which *may* be connected to infections. This seems to be a common pale variety instead.
On LFS guarantees: ask them how do they know. Did they treat their fish at all, and if yes, with what.
On Transmission to other fish: generally tapeworms require intermediate hosts. BUT: <1> I'm not certain that this is an absolute truth, and <2> "skinny disease" may be a symptome of a different type of infection, which is transmittable.

hth

Thanks very much for the explanantion mikev. I guess I got confused and mixed up between it being a disease, rather than a symptom. In any case, the best way forward is to try and get some Levamisole, and treat the whole tank. If a clown is not infected with worms, would treating it with Levamisole do any harm?

I've PMed EdenAU to ask for advice as to where I can get Levamisole in Australia, I found some Levamisole on an online pet store (based in Oz) but was selling Levamisole, 5L for $90 AUD! First, I doubt I'll be using 5 litres of Levamisole, and $90 seems very pricey.

Here's a link - is this what Levamisole looks like? This looks like this type of Levamisole is used to treat cattle and sheep.

http://www.petalia.com.au/templates/pro ... on=answers

Hopefully, I'll be able to find some Levamisole that is cheaper and in a smaller size.

Glad to hear the pale colour is not what may be associated with infections and since the other clowns are eating with great appetites, swimming healthily and growing at light speed (!), at least I can assume the others are okay for now.

I really wish Levamisole was more readily available, say at most LFS, that would make it so much easier.

[ey]

***** I have edited my first/initial post to include more photos with a description to the clown loach I am worried about.

Here are 2 more:

Of the 2 clowns swimming upwards, the skinny one is on the leftNotice how pale his body colour is compared to the clown next to him. The 2 clowns may be similar in length, but notice the difference in height and girth.

He's on the far left, with a cory blocking his face A good pic to see his body isnt girthed, but isnt skinny or boney either.

[mikev]

If a clown is not infected with worms, would treating it with Levamisole do any harm?

I could not find any stories of this type. I used levimisole on a few dozens fish here, without problems; Emma probably used it on thousands.

Healthy appearance and behavior unfortunately do not guarantee absense of worms. Watch your fish carefully after you treat: you may see some losing the appetite for short time, then developing abnormal appetite, it is a sign of a hit (and a cause for celebration).

As for getting levimisole: can you order from the US? At the link I gave you before it costs $15, shipping is probably around $20 -- ask them. It is not like you need it overnight. Your link seems to be the right thing, just figure out the dose carefully (not that overdosing seems to be particularly dangerous).

hth.

[ey]

hi ey, sometimes, the clown on the lowest of the pecking order are not happy and do not eat well. There is a good possibility he is the lowest rank. He may still be healthy; he even looks healthy. Most if not all sick fish or fish with parasite would not be so erect on the fins. If he new to your tank and is picky, feed him what he likes. Thew will love blood worms and live or frozen brine shrimp. From what I could make out in the picture, the fish closest to the glass on the right is the one you are talking about?? and does not look like it has the "skinny". It just looks like it is not eating as much as the others.

Hi Vancmann, yes, I'm pretty sure this clown is indeed the weakest one in the pack. Thats why whenever I feed the clowns, he is almost always last to get the spoils.

I added him the same time as the other loaches, and yes, he is the one closest to the glass in that pic.

I think he is healthy, because, while he doesn't dart around the tank (from one end to the other) when someone moves in front of the tank, he is very responsive and in no way shows sign of being lethargic.

[ey]

One more thing I forgot to mention about this clown loach is that, when I got him from the LFS, he already had a small, tiny hole in his dorsal fin. The hole is probably 2mm in diameter, its hard to see unless you really look for it. The hole is in the middle of the dorsal fin.

I thought it may grow back, but it hasnt - would this have anything to do with him not growing?

[ey]

and a better one:

http://aquaweb.pair.com/forums/archives ... read=80416

Thank you sagqueen, I will read through the old threads.

[Vancmann]

Hi ey,
Before you treat your tank with an antibiotic which might harm the beneficial bacteria in your tank, try feeding "skinny" what he likes and give him some bloodworms and brine shrimp (live ones if possible). See if that would fatten him up in a week or so.
Clown loaches, once established in a tank can live very long and are very strong fish. I have never lost one to death in over 12 years.

[mikev]

The good news are that Levimisole has no effect on bacteria. Kanacyn is a different story, of course.


Sorry for off-topic: Vancmann, I just noticed your sig: you seem to have a few semi- and agressive loaches in the same tank. How do they all get along?

Are they all simply suppressed by the presense of clowns, likely the largest in your tank?

[Fishhead]

No, I don't see much of the sunkenness that indicates true illness. So long as the loach eats some foods well, I would keep feeding that type of food to the tank until the one you're worried about fattens up some.. Colors get stronger and lighter on occasion. I have heard that the darker the loach, the more dominant the fish. If the fish is pale, there is a chance there is a larger loach in the tank that has established dominance.

Now, my loach.. He's REALLY THIN and REALLY PALE.. He doesn't eat much of anything and he's kinda sluggish. Can someone help me? Here's a picture to help you diagnose him..

Fishhead



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