Is a ph of 6.6 too high for clown loaches

[tango]

Is this ph too high for my 6 clown loaches and if so how can I lower it without use of chemical adjusters?

Already have large piece of bogwood in planted (many plants seem to be dying off/browning - maybe due to reduced lighting) tank, read that peat will make water go brown?

Substrate is pea gravel atop soil ( yes I experimented with a Naturally planted tank )and JBL floraplus substrate. So not sure if this would increase alkalinity?

[chefkeith]

Read this about pH-
http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/m ... 00269.html

Fish care more about the mineralization levels of the water and it's consistency.
For loaches that would be a soft kH, gH, and the TDS consistency.

Soft water is good for loaches.
When I say soft I mean,
kH = less than 6 degrees or 108 ppm
gH = less than 6 degrees or 108 ppm

Soft TDS range for loaches = under 200 ppm

[Pilze]

My tank is double that, GH 12 or 13 dH. That's exactly how hard it is out of the tap. I'm moving closer to the fish store and I would like to fix my liquid rock problem.

I have a sump setup now, but I think I'm going to setup a continuous drip water changing system. Do you think I should correct my hardness during the move or should I allow the drip to do it for me?

[Diana]

When you move fish from water with high TDS to a water with low TDS (or do a big water change that lowers the TDS) the fish need a lot of time to adapt. You should not just suddenly start using RO water in large volumes. Start slow, perhaps 10% daily water changes with RO, and continue regular water changes or set up a drip/continuous water change system with regular tap water. Once you get the feel for how well your system is working you might be able to set up certain % RO and certain % tap water into the system, and gradually increase the % of RO. Take a month or more to do this so the fish acclimate with the least stress. If you can lower the GH and KH by a degree or two a week the fish will handle it very well, and this would take about a month. (lets say 6 degree drop @ 1.5 degrees per week = 1 month).
Many fish would be quite capable of handling this change faster, but remember that moving into softer water is harder on them that going the other way.

One of the best fish stores around keeps their fish in really hard water, and I regularly have a tank going that matches their water so I can bring home some more fish. Then a month of water changes to get rid of lots of the minerals and salt, then the fish are fine to go into the main tanks.

[chefkeith]

My tank is double that, GH 12 or 13 dH. That's exactly how hard it is out of the tap. I'm moving closer to the fish store and I would like to fix my liquid rock problem.

I have a sump setup now, but I think I'm going to setup a continuous drip water changing system. Do you think I should correct my hardness during the move or should I allow the drip to do it for me?

Nothing beats a drip or trickle water change system. That's what I'd vote for.

[Graeme McKellar]

A question for Chefkeith if I may, You mention 6 degrees as an upper limit for KH and GH but is there a lower limit you can recommend for these where PH stability can be maintained ???
Cheers Graeme.

[Diana]

KH of about 3 degrees keeps the pH stable under average conditions, less than that and the pH can fluctuate more widely, and easier.
I have had a few tanks with KH of 0 degrees, and the pH was stabel, but at 6.0. THe nitrifying bacteria really do not like this low a pH, they do better with the pH from about 6.5 to 8.

pH of 6.6 is rather acidic, but not too low for many fish. Some fish even thrive in a lower pH than this. Larger volumes of water (like a river) are more stable than an aquarium, though, so it may be better to keep the pH from about the mid 6s to the low 7s for the fish that come from soft, acidic waters.

Substrates can lower pH. ADA substrates are known to do this, and Soil Master Select can do it.
Organic matter can lower the pH, also. The driftwood might be doing this.

What is the KH in your tank and tap water?

[Pilze]

Thanks for the advice. I'm going to save as much water as possible and try to match the GH.

[chefkeith]

A question for Chefkeith if I may, You mention 6 degrees as an upper limit for KH and GH but is there a lower limit you can recommend for these where PH stability can be maintained ???
Cheers Graeme.

How do you define pH stability? If the pH is changing due to day and night CO2 fluctuations this will not harm fish. If the kH stays the same, the pH won't matter much to the fish.
Like what Diana said, the bacteria do better when the pH is around 7, but they will still multiply if the pH is above 4.6. They'll just multiply slower. With lower pH's, you'll need much more biological media and more water flowing over it to avoid ammonia spikes.

Think of the pH as like a pay rate. If you pay 2 kids $5 an hour to do yard work, it will take 2 hours to get the job done. But if you hire one professional landscaper $20 an hour instead, he/she would probably do the same job in half the time as the 2 kids. Either way you pay the same price to get the job done. The only real factor is time. If you want the job done in 1/2 hour, you'll either need 8 kids at $5 per hour or 2 - $20 per hour professionals.

pH and bacteria work the same way. The only real factor is time if the pH is above 4.6. The 4.6 pH is for most bacteria in general.

edit- there are other factors as well. The FAT TOM acronym is often used to determine bacterial growth rates. That is Food, Acidity, Time, Temp, Oxygen, and Moisture.

[Diana]

The 4.6 pH is for most bacteria in general.

I have seen several posts from people with aquarium problems that seem to be Old Tank Syndrome, with the pH in the low 6s, and apparently the nitrifying bacteria have quit working. (dead, or working like weed-pulling children- so slowly the weeds are growing faster than they are pulling)

I understand that many bacteria will hang in there even in a very acidic range, but I also think that the nitrifying bacteria we are dependent on in aquariums cannot handle it this low.
They seem to need a little carbonates, and a GH of at least 3 degrees to supply other minerals they need in very small amounts.

[chefkeith]

Diana- That is very True. Bacteria do need a source of Carbon, either from the kH or CO2.

Tanks with OTS have many reasons that kill fish and destroy the nitrifying bacteria. Bacteria can die from intoxication of their own waste products. In other words, excessive amounts of Nitrites can kill everything, including nitrifying bacteria. That's why when doing a fishless cycle you don't want to add to much ammonia or else the nitrites will spike too high.

A tank with OTS, if a fish dies, the ammonia spikes from the rotting fish, then the nitrites spike, and then everything is dead from the nitrite intoxication.

Nitrites are bad, but they can be good.
Nitrites are used widely in the food industry as a food preservative. I've made sausages using nitrites as the curing agent. Nitrites also have many medical uses. It's used to cure things like athlete's foot.

[tango]

Thank you members for opening my eyes to TDS. Will get myself a meter and do more frequent and smaller water changes.

Chefkeith thank you for the link.

Could the moderator/administrator for this forum perhaps make a 'sticky' of links to posts in the forums about TDS?( I know there is this one:

http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php ... sc&start=0

but what are safe levels in ppm- is there a published scale?)
Newbies such as myself want to learn but find it daunting especially considering I'd never heard of TDS and then variables such as ferts/ liquid carbon, my smaller guppy tank is brackish water so I assume TDS will be higher? Perhaps TDS warrants it's own article on the Loach site or maybe 'a beginners guide to water quality' or such like.

Just a thought, as I'm sure all the relevant info is dotted around the forum anyway.

[chefkeith]

The Safe Levels of TDS-
That's something each person will have to determine for their species of fish. To the fish, consistency at that specific level is the most important thing.

For my tanks, the safe or target level is about +40 ppm above the initial TDS reading. My initial reading from the tap water is usually around 120 ppm, so I try to keep my aquarium TDS below 160. If the aquarium water is above 160 ppm, then I know I need to do water changes and/or clean filters. Just cleaning all my filters real good can sometimes drop the TDS by about 10 ppm,

I use a UV sterilizer too, so my +40 target level might be a little high for someone without UV. I don't know this for fact though. I'm cheap and lazy and try to push things to what I believe is the high end of the safe limit.

The TDS reading won't tell you what is in the water though. You'll need to figure out what is in the water by doing other tests. If nothing is leaching in the aquarium water, then the TDS increase may be proportional to a Nitrate increase.

The tap water should help determine what the initial reading is, but if stuff is added to the water, such as salt or fertilizers, then you'll need to incorporate that into the initial reading. If something is leaching in the aquarium water, like rocks, then that will show in the TDS reading also.

Water companies will also change the water from time to time. If your from an environment that experiences droughts or water shortages, you should expect the TDS of the source water to change without warning. These TDS changes can be dramatic to the fish.

A good TDS article would be nice. It might be a few years yet before anything on the subject becomes factual though. More people need to succeed in the practice in using such methods. What works for me and a few others, might not work for everyone.