New food for BIG loaches

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andre
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Post by andre » Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:33 pm

Ops, the caffein kicked in :roll:

carphunter57
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Post by carphunter57 » Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:02 pm

Wow! did i read that right? carnivore pellets £6.45 for 2 ozs!!!!!!

What exactly is in them for that price and how much are the mega pellets?

piggy4
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Post by piggy4 » Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:15 pm

I must say i've been using the small packs for a young Hemibagrus variagatus , and though i dont see him eating any they do dissapear .

Is it me or do they smell quite nice ?

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Post by wasserscheu » Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:09 pm

I love Martin´s wonderful action shot (3rd pic), "... it got to be somewhere in there :!: " - just perfect.
Wolfram

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Emma Turner
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Post by Emma Turner » Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:07 am

I tried broken up Hikari Carnivore pellets in my Y. sidthiminki/V. maassi tank last night. They went mad for them, even the V. maassi who are usually very shy. I will have to try and get some video footage of it. At one point last night, one of the V. maassi came right to the front of the tank and snatched 1/4 of one of these pellets in it's little mouth and swam off with it into her hiding place. 8) I have seen the V. maassi behaving like this with frozen foods, but they have never been quite as enthusiastic about a dried food as this.

Emma
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andre
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Post by andre » Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:59 am

I looked for them at the LFS's but couldn't fine them :(

NancyD
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Post by NancyD » Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:34 am

My maassi love them too, all the fish really. My "extrovert" gets quite bitey if anyone else gets near it's piece.

The smell seems to make a "return" several hours later :o
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Bully
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Post by Bully » Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:46 pm

I think I will get some of the Sinking Carnivore Pellets to try for my sids. and striata. I've been wanting to try them for some time and this has both reminded me, and encouraged me to do so. I have a lot of respect for the Hikari foods. I've been using their Micro Wafers to great effect, and prefer it to flake (as apparently do my fish), though I always use flake-based foods as well so that the fish don't get fixed on a single type :)

carphunter57
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Post by carphunter57 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:50 pm

Can anybody let me know what is in these pellets please. I've had a look on the website but it just gives a nutritional break down.

The reason I ask is because I have an interest in fish nutrition, in a former life I made specialist Carp and Barbel baits and have a pretty good understanding of what makes a good food and of feeding triggers and will be making my own tit bits for my fish at some stage in the future.

So the angler (and bait maker) in me is interested to see, what, if anything in the ingredients list causes such a strong feeding response.

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Emma Turner
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Post by Emma Turner » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:29 pm

Hi carphunter57,

The ingredients list is as follows:

Fish meal, krill meal, starch, fish oil, wheat flour, dried seaweeds meal, spirulina, brewers dried yeast, enzyme, astaxanthin, canthaxanthin, DL-methionine, L-lysine, vitamin A oil, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K), choline chloride, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (stabilised vitamin C), inositol, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, niacin, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, ferrous sulfate, magnesium sulfate, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, cobalt sulfate, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, aluminium hydroxide.

Guaranteed analysis:

Crude protein - min 47%
Crude fat - min 5.0%
Crude fibre - max 3.0%
Mositure - max 10%
Crude ash - max 17%
Phosphorus - min 1.0%

Emma
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carphunter57
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Post by carphunter57 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:42 pm

Emma Turner wrote:Hi carphunter57,

The ingredients list is as follows:

Fish meal, krill meal, starch, fish oil, wheat flour, dried seaweeds meal, spirulina, brewers dried yeast, enzyme, astaxanthin, canthaxanthin, DL-methionine, L-lysine, vitamin A oil, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K), choline chloride, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (stabilised vitamin C), inositol, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, niacin, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, ferrous sulfate, magnesium sulfate, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, cobalt sulfate, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, aluminium hydroxide.

Guaranteed analysis:

Crude protein - min 47%
Crude fat - min 5.0%
Crude fibre - max 3.0%
Mositure - max 10%
Crude ash - max 17%
Phosphorus - min 1.0%

Emma
Cheers Emma

Well. nothing special there then.

The feeding reaction is probably triggered by the Krill meal, fish do love it and the choline chloride is very attractive to em as well.

That said there are a few pretty attractive ingredients in the pellets.

But to be honest it's a pretty standard feed stuff.

Bit suprised by the astaxanthin, and canthaxanthin as they are the arftificial colourants used in the fish industry to give farmed rainbow trout and salmon that rich pink flesh the consumer desires, Beta carotens are another attractant.

Also suprised at the copper sulphate as it's poisonous to invertabrate life in PPM, but I guess they know what they are doing.

Someone's making a small fortune as there are no expensive ingredients in the mix. :cry:

RD.
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Post by RD. » Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:12 am

Yes, most likely the krill meal is the main trigger in the feed response.
I feed New Life Spectrum to my clown loaches and they go after it in a frenzy. (main ingredient is south antarctic krill meal) Both astaxanthin and canthaxanthin can also be found in natural feedstuffs, such as shrimp, krill, and micro algae, although I have no idea where Hikari sources theirs from. As far as the copper sulphate, copper is an essential trace element in all living things, even natural sea water contains copper, as do all of the commercial salt water mixes on the market. In fish feeds it is found in such minute amounts, it will have no negative effect on a fish, or for that matter even a sensitive reef system.

HTH

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andre
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Post by andre » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:21 am

Interesting thread!

I bought Hikari frozen krill months ago to give the fish some variety but it's still in the freezer. All fish seem to ignore it including the clowns.

carphunter57
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Post by carphunter57 » Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:08 pm

RD. wrote:Yes, most likely the krill meal is the main trigger in the feed response.
I feed New Life Spectrum to my clown loaches and they go after it in a frenzy. (main ingredient is south antarctic krill meal) Both astaxanthin and canthaxanthin can also be found in natural feedstuffs, such as shrimp, krill, and micro algae, although I have no idea where Hikari sources theirs from. As far as the copper sulphate, copper is an essential trace element in all living things, even natural sea water contains copper, as do all of the commercial salt water mixes on the market. In fish feeds it is found in such minute amounts, it will have no negative effect on a fish, or for that matter even a sensitive reef system.

HTH
I assumed that because they have listed astaxanthin, and canthaxanthin as ingredients that they have added them as an additional cartenoid. The reason it suprises me is that there are plenty of natural cartenoids in the Krill and the spirulina.

This is the first time I have seen copper sulphate listed as an ingredient in a commercial fish food. Like I said it is very toxic to invert life and is the active ingredient in many medications, methylene (sp?) blue, malachite green, formalin etc and if memory serves become more toxic as PH levels decrease. I think I have worked why it's included, it's also an exellent fungicide, so I reckon it's used as a form of preservative.

The Hikari pellets and the baits I was making are very similar. I was using a paprika based product to get the cartenoids, liver powder to get the b vitamins (and occasionally yeast products) enzyme active soya flour instead of wheat flour and milk proteins to get the methionine and lysine levels up (first and second limiting amino acids). Food value would be very similar as would feeding reaction. Hmmmm may have to get the bait making kit out and make myself some fish food. :wink:

RD.
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Post by RD. » Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:15 am

I assumed that because they have listed astaxanthin, and canthaxanthin as ingredients that they have added them as an additional cartenoid.
Not necessarily. Most pet food manufacturers list ingredients in a rather general manner to keep the competition guessing. As an example, until Cyanotech just recently quit producing their 'Naturose' natural algae based form of astaxanthin, numerous fish food manufacturers used it in their feed, but the vast majority of them simply listed it as astaxanthin, if it was listed at all. Very few would list Naturose as Haematococcus pluvialis, even though that would have been more accurate.

A good example of ingredients being listed in a very general manner, would be the 3rd ingredient in the formula above, starch. Could be just about anything, although I suspect that it's either soybean protein concentrate or soybean isolate, which at approx 90% protein would explain how they got the crude protein to 47%.

As far a copper sulphate, as previously mentioned, copper is an essential trace element in all living things and is typically added in extreme minute amounts, FAR below what one would ever find in any form of medication. Some reef "supplements" even contain tiny amounts of copper sulphate. It is not used as a preservative.
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~ ... V1152.html

Almost everything and anything can become toxic at high enough levels, including fat-soluble vitamins. No nutritionist would recommend completely eliminating vitamin A, B, D, E and K from the diet just because they can become toxic at high levels, yet this exact type of logic is what's used when some people discuss certain trace elements such as copper.

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