Clown loach - autopsy - swim bladder?

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catdogfish
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Location: cardiff

Clown loach - autopsy - swim bladder?

Post by catdogfish » Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:25 am

Hello,

I have a 40 gallon tank (being upgraded to a 7x2.5x2 in November) and I'd be grateful for some advice please. Having read other peoples posts on here I'll give you the details first:

It is well established (18 months)
25% water change weekly (conditioned water from tap used and warmed up to tank temperature)
Nitrites - 0
PH - 6.8
Nitrates - 20-40
KH & GH - can't remember but think they might be on the high side (will check tonight)
tank temperature 82
gravel is vacuumed 50% per alternating week. So 50% vacuumed, 0 vaccumed, the other 50% vacummed etc

Tank contains:

2 silver dollar 3.5 inch
2 piranha tetra 2 inch
1 plecostomus 4 inch
2 angel (2 inch and 1 inch)
1 barb 1.5 inch)
20 neons (small)
4 severum (0.5 inch, 0.75 inch, 1 inch, 1.5 inch)
2 gourami (3 inch 1.5 inch)
3 clown loaches (2 inch - 1 recently died)

I realise it may be a strange mix of fish, I actually inherited the tank a few months ago and the only addition I made were the clown loaches. Having done lots of reading though I will be adding more clowns, so they can form a proper hierarchical society, and upgrading to a larger tank. I will gradually seek to rehome some of the fish and focus on the clowns, good water flow etc.

Recently though my clowns all displayed slightly podgy stomachs. 2 of them dealt with it fine and after a day of reduced feeding their stomachs went down. One, however, did not do as well. It's stomach looked swollen (I thought it might be some kind of parasite) and it was lethargic.

As soon as i noticed this I went to buy some treatments for internal parasites, the next day I came home with the intention of quarantining (sp?) the fish but unfortunately it had died.

I decided to cut it open to check for worms (don't actually know what I'm looking for) but could find no evidence of it. I did, however, find a sac of air - the swim bladder? - that was about a cm long and half cm wide. I removed it from the fish and it stayed inflated. There may even have been 2 of these as I heard a pop when I first opened the fish.

Anyway, sorry for the long post! Could this have been a disease of the swim bladder? Do clown loaches have 2 of these? Was the one in mine swollen for a fish its size?

I really want to look after them properly but am afraid to commit to a larger shoal in a larger tank if there is a disease in my water. Or if I'm doing things wrong.

Another bit of info, I have begun doing smaller, more frequent water changes in an effort to reduce the nitrates.

Phew, sorry for the essay. I'd be grateful for you thoughts.

Many thanks,

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chefkeith
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Post by chefkeith » Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:20 am

Welcome to LOL. We're not the fish whisperers, but if you could give us some more information I think we might be able to help you.

Fish bloat is symptom of an infection (primary or secondary) that can be caused by many different things, such as physical injuries, and bacterial, fungus, or parasite outbreaks.

Even water changes can cause the bloating symptom if the water profile is suddenly changed and the fish has acclimation problems. That's one reason why kH and gH are very important.

Please tell us more about the aquarium.

What kind of substrate?
What kind of decor?
Is anything in the tank not inert?
What do you feed the fish?
Do the loaches have plenty of hiding places that are easy for them to fit in? Sometimes they'll squeeze into small holes and hurt themselves.
Do you use tap water or well water?
What kind of filters?
Also, where you are from? That can be of help too.
Can you post a picture of the aquarium?

Also when did you get the clown loaches?

catdogfish
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Location: cardiff

Post by catdogfish » Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:43 am

Hi chefkeith, thanks for answering, ok here goes:

What kind of substrate? fine gravel (1mm diameter)
What kind of decor? some rocks (sorry, don't know what type, they are white and slightly rough) other than that I have 4 plants in there (again, not sure of the names, one looks like flat leaf parsley, and the others are like long green blades that are wider towards the tip, one piece of soaked bogwood
Is anything in the tank not inert? I'm afraid I wouldn't know. The rocks came with the aquarium and the previous owner had kept them in there for over a year with no problems. there are no artificial ornaments.
What do you feed the fish? fish are fed flake, catfood pellets, algae wafers, freezedried bloodworm and chopped frozen prawn (1 prawn for all the fish) once a week.
Do the loaches have plenty of hiding places that are easy for them to fit in? Sometimes they'll squeeze into small holes and hurt themselves. Yes, lots of caves created with the rocks but I've read that rough rocks are not ideal? They currently reside in a dark area of the tank when resting where i've built a series of caves with the rocks.
Do you use tap water or well water? tap water, conditioned with aquasafe
What kind of filters? fluval filter, internal with 2 sponges for 200 litre aquarium
Also, where you are from? From Cardiff UK
Can you post a picture of the aquarium? Afraid not, maybe tomorow as I am in work today.

Also when did you get the clown loaches? The clown loaches are about 3 weeks old

I just called my fiance and asked her to test the water, the results were:

Ph 6
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 40
Carbonate hardness = 0
General hardness = 180

Forgot to mention we have an airstone and the filter is high in the tank to blow bubbles and ripple the surface.

Thanks again, happy to provide more info if required.

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chefkeith
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Post by chefkeith » Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:37 am

The kh = 0? That can be a problem.

Can you double check that?
Also can you check the kH an gH of the tap water.

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chefkeith
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Post by chefkeith » Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:51 am

The Nitrate being 40 ppm can be problematic also especially for new fish.

I think the clown loach that died had problems acclimating to this new environment. There is a high fish load in that tank. With all those fish, it's is biological playground for bacteria and new fish especially will have a tough time adapting to that.

If the kH is 0, that could be causing some problems also.

catdogfish
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Location: cardiff

Post by catdogfish » Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:58 am

High fish load, really? The tank looks quite sparse! Is there anything I can do in the meantime rather than get rid of fish to ease the burden? Run 2 filters etc?

I'll re-test the kh tonight as I'm not sure on that result.


And definitely not get more fish! Which is a shame because I just visited my LFS and they have some beautiful striped khuli's.

Shall I continue doing water changes to try and reduce the nitrates?


Thanks so much.

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bullisbm
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Post by bullisbm » Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:57 am

Yeah that is a pretty heavy fish load.

The "standard" measurement is 1 inch of fish per gallon of water. You want to try to base that off there adult size.

You have some decent size fish in that tank even through some of them are small now they will get big..

If that is a standard plecostomus they get very large I have seen the up to 18 inches.

Most of us have overstocked tanks and it can be done but it requires a lot of extra work to keep the water clean.

catdogfish
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Location: cardiff

Post by catdogfish » Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:45 am

Thanks for all the info, I calculated the fish stock using the 1 cubic inch per gallon rule, most of the fish are tiny now so I don't think it's that heavily stocked is it? I mean as it is now. The plec is 4 inches tops but most of that is tail which is very skinny for some example.

I realise that if they were all to grow to their full size or be on the way then it might be a problem re: stocking levels, but seeing as though most are juvenile isn't this ok? In terms of them getting larger, I will be getting a much larger tank in November.

I'd be grateful for your opinion considering their size. If you feel it is a problem I will try and rehome the larger fish asap.

Thanks again.

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bullisbm
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Post by bullisbm » Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:05 pm

You should probably be ok for a short time.

I would just suggest 50% water changes weekly, just to keep the water in the best condition.

catdogfish
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Location: cardiff

Post by catdogfish » Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:31 am

Thanks very much for the advice Bullisbm.


I'll up the wate change to 50%. Do you know if extra filtration would help at all?



Thank you. I love the site by the way, very informative. You have a great pool of knowledge between you all.

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Bully
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Post by Bully » Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:07 am

Extra filtration will always be a bonus. It will take some time to get the filter bacteria established, but if you take some of the filter media from your existing filter and place it in the new filter it will help "seed" the new filter.

Who is your lfs? I've been to a few in the Cardiff area :) What is the pH out of your tap, pH 6 seems low for Cardiff. The pH out of my tap water (Pontypridd) is artifically set by Dwr Cymru at pH 7 and my tanks are pH 6.8. GH & KH are both 3 out of my tap and ammonia, nitrite and nitrates are all 0. I suspect my supply is different to yours though :)

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Ashleigh
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Post by Ashleigh » Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:20 am

catdogfish wrote: I'll up the wate change to 50%. Do you know if extra filtration would help at all?

Filtering the water internally/externally only removes ammonia and nitrite from the water via aerobic bacteria, they don't actually break down nitrate (only anaerobic bacteria do), so basically the only way you have of getting those nitrates down is by water changes, adding fast growing plants can also assist but the main bulk is up to you changing the water frequently.

Do you know what the nitrate reading is out of your tap? That could determine the number of water changes you do-if you have 5-10ppm nitrates showing in your tap water you are going to have to do more regular water changes to keep it at 20ppm in your tank.

I would tend to vac the gravel once a week rather than everyother as left over foods etc can become wedged between and start to break down, again this can contribute to your nitrate reading-that has to be one of the plus points of using sand-all the crap stays on top :D


Ashleigh

catdogfish
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Location: cardiff

Post by catdogfish » Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:44 am

Hi Bully,

My LFS is one of three Maidenhead aquatics (Radyr), the fish guy in Cardiff Market (nice supply of fish and have been the healthiest I've bought compared with the other 2) and when in an emergency Pets at home Cardiff Bay. My favourite is Maidenhead because of there huge selection, though I've had most success with fish surviving from Cardiff Maket. His Clown Loaches are a bit older and better established so you don't have to worry about them being underweight and wasting away. Though Maidenhead had some lovely fat clowns last time I went.

The ph from the tap is neutral, I think I've been suffering from 'old tank' syndrome and too many nitrates, it was getting converted to nitric acid. That combined with my low kh meant my ph reached 6. I corrected ti by doing a realyl thorough clean and water change (found an area behind a rock where all kinds of mulch had been collecting. I added bicarbonate of soda to up the kh and the ph is now at a respectable 6.5.

Hi Ashleigh, I will certainly up the water changes. I'm not sure on my tap water readings but I will take them tonight. Hopefully I will have really helped keep the nitrates down with the big clean last night. I intend on changing more of the water in a few days.

I had read you shouldn't vac your sand too much because you lose your beneficial bacteria, thats why I only used to do it alternate weeks. However, I read today that those bacteria that are beneficial are actually sticky and vaccuming the sand wont get rid of them as they stick to the substrate.

Hopefully I can keep my tank in much better condition now with all of your advice, thanks.

Any ideas about where to place a second filter in a tank? If I place it on the other side I may end up with a whirlpool of fast rotating water, and if I place it on the same side I'll have a jet powered current that I don't think the angels will appreciate.

Thanks everyone.

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Ashleigh
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Post by Ashleigh » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:01 am

catdogfish wrote:Hi Bully,

Hi Ashleigh, I will certainly up the water changes. I'm not sure on my tap water readings but I will take them tonight. Hopefully I will have really helped keep the nitrates down with the big clean last night. I intend on changing more of the water in a few days.

I had read you shouldn't vac your sand too much because you lose your beneficial bacteria, thats why I only used to do it alternate weeks. However, I read today that those bacteria that are beneficial are actually sticky and vaccuming the sand wont get rid of them as they stick to the substrate.

Hopefully I can keep my tank in much better condition now with all of your advice, thanks.

Any ideas about where to place a second filter in a tank? If I place it on the other side I may end up with a whirlpool of fast rotating water, and if I place it on the same side I'll have a jet powered current that I don't think the angels will appreciate.

Thanks everyone.

Most of your bb is actually housed in your filter media, there is a proportion in the substrate. I would try and concentrate keeping the nitrates down as much as I could as 40ppm is a little high.
If you do up the vacs to every week or so, I wouldn't be inclined to go over the top and give it a 100% clean, just enough to remove any gunk sitting on the surface one week and then perhaps a better clean the following week, especially when considering how much common plecs poop even at a small size :shock:

What sort of filter are you looking to add? I have a bit of a 'whirlpool' going on in most of my tanks-the loaches love the flow but Im not sure your Angels would be to impressed with you :lol: . Is there a flow restricter on the filter so you can alter the flow and turn it down whilst still benefiting from the extra surface for the bb to colonise-some filters let you adjust the direction the flow is output-I have two filters aimed at the long sides of the glass which helps reduce the main current. Another way to get round flow is to put up barriers and create low flow areas, again I have done this and had great success. Its just up to playing around to find what what suits you and your fish best.

You should post up some pictures of your tank and fishy friends... we love pictures here :wink:


Ashleigh

catdogfish
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:03 am
Location: cardiff

Post by catdogfish » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:07 am

Thanks for the advice Ashleigh, I have a couple of spare Fluval internal filters and they have a toggle for altering the flow rate. I'll set one up and mess around till I get the desired effect.



Ahh yes, pictures! I'll borow a friends camera and get them uploaded asap. It'd be nice to get some opinions!

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