clown loachs and cichlids it really can work

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DarrenMnaples
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clown loachs and cichlids it really can work

Post by DarrenMnaples » Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:51 pm

hello everyone first off i just want to say i really love this site......its been a little over 2 months now and everyone is getting along great :D i have 10 mixed african cichlids 7 clown loachs and one pleco in a 55gallon tank i have lots of rocks and caves with a few live plants ...i keep my ph around 7.2-7.4 temp 80-82f and all is well sometimes at night i hear my loachs clicking so i know there really happy ...they all get along great and my loachs love hanging out with the cichlids all day so they are always out and about plus i feed them a large varity of food....i think what helped the most is that i got all of them all most at the same time and they where all babies and the loachs were bigger in the begging but now the cichlids out greww them but all is still well :D 8) :shock: :o :wink:
Should have gotten a bigger tank !

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notoo7
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Post by notoo7 » Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:54 pm

African Cichlids? Wow my cichlid tank is pure evil, I would be afraid to put even my largest clowns in there...
Last edited by notoo7 on Sun Jun 25, 2006 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Clowns Discus Kubotai Yoyo GlassCats Pleco GhostKnife Corys RTBotias Skunks Paradise TBarbs Pleco Schistura TigerBotia Oscars Pacus TinFoils Synodontis Blood Parrots (not in same tank)

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botiaboy
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Post by botiaboy » Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:57 pm

I think that 7 clowns in a 55 gallon tank is a litte overstocked....
My loaches:
5 kubotai
5 almorhae
5 kuhli
5 zebra
1 aborichthys

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Emma Turner
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Post by Emma Turner » Fri Jun 23, 2006 8:12 am

Personally I don't like the idea of mixing African cichlids with Asian loaches. I take it these are Malawi cichlids? If so, the pH 'compromise' you are keeping them in is a little on the low side. The hard water of Lake Malawi has an average pH of around 8.3, whereas Botia prefer the water soft and slightly acidic. Just because it seems to be working at the moment doesn't mean it's right long-term.

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Vancmann
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Post by Vancmann » Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:01 pm

botiaboy wrote:I think that 7 clowns in a 55 gallon tank is a litte overstocked....
Absolutely! unless they are babies 1-2 inches
120 gallon planted aquaponic tank with 10 clown loachs, first one since 1994, 1 modesta and 3 striadas.

DarrenMnaples
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Post by DarrenMnaples » Sat Jun 24, 2006 6:54 pm

they are all 2-4 inches and and the cichlids are 4-5 inches do you really think im over stocked in a 55 gallon my LFS said as long as i hace plenty ove caves and hiding places it would be fine they also said that my cichlids were farm raised and therefore they have never been in water with more then 7.0 ph please any comments would be greatly appreciated i realy just want happy healthy fish i do have another 55 gallon its just not set up i was going to wait till i moved next year i already planned on buying a 120 gallon tank after moving day for my loaches they would probally be two years old by then
Should have gotten a bigger tank !

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TammyLiz
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Post by TammyLiz » Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:44 pm

I sounds like they are happy by your description at the top. I am not sure if you'll run into trouble in the future or not. I've had africans before and I can say they are the meanest little fish I've ever kept!

I don't keep clowns so I'm not an expert and this is just my opinion, but I can't say that your tank is in a terrible situation (other than possible compatability issues). The bioload is not going to be stressed with that number of fish at that size but upgrading soon for the clowns is a must. Keep your water clean with weekly water changes and they should be OK until you get that 120.

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Emma Turner
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Post by Emma Turner » Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:58 pm

If you want to keep both Clown Loaches and Malawi cichlids, you really need to set-up two separate tanks for them. There are many differences with regards to their upkeep, some of them being:

-Clown Loaches are river fish and do best in tanks with a high flow rate. Although Malawis need good filtration, they are ultimately lake-dwelling fish, and although Lake Malawi is a huge body of water, it does not have the same degree of current as rivers.
-The average natural temperature of Lake Malawi is 25 degrees C. Clown Loaches prefer warmer temps between 27 and 30 degrees C.
-The average hardness of the water in Lake Malawi is approx 18 dH, that's way to high for Clown Loaches who do best in softer water long-term.
-The dietary requirements of the two types of fish differ. A lot of the frozen foods which are ideal for loaches are simply too rich for Malawi cichlids, and can cause them problems.
-The aggression level of your Malawi cichlids is likely to increase as the fish reach sexual maturity. Not good for sensitive species such as Clown Loaches who can become easily stressed.
-Coming from different continents, they (obviously) do not encounter each other naturally.

By the way, the shop is going to tell you that it's ok to keep them together in order to cover their own backs - they sold them all to you in the first place. A decent shop would not have recommended housing them together. This place sounds like it is just after as much $$$ as they can take.

One last thought. The fish concerned have evolved over millions of years to adapt to certain set of conditions. A handful of generations of breeding is not going to change millions of years of evolution. The fish may be temporarily surviving in 'compromised' conditions, but their long-term health is likely to suffer. Mankind should not force fish to adapt to what we want. The tanks we keep them in should be tailored to their needs, not ours.

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Graeme Robson
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Post by Graeme Robson » Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:00 pm

Lets put it this way! Whatever your LFS said, It made you part with money! I would strongly recommend that people should do a little research before purchasing fish.

I'm with Emma, on this one.
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TammyLiz
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Post by TammyLiz » Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:42 pm

Emma, you have some very good points. I didn't even consider the feeding issue. You have me swayed with that one. I wouldn't have done the setup in the first place (it just doesn't make sense to me), but when I wrote my post I was seeing that this person wasn't really asking for advice, only joyfully sharing, so I was being a bit of a softie. However, I do applaud you sticking up for the fish.

DarrenMnaples
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Post by DarrenMnaples » Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:37 am

emma thank you very much for all of your knowlage now i just have to figure out woch fish to get ride of (probally the cichlids) i will just feel kinda stupid walking in to the fish store with all 10 cichlids :oops: ireally appreceate every ones input like i said i just want happy healthy fish thank you again


but you still think 7 clowns in a 55 gallon is to much and mabe 7 -10 other new fish??/
Should have gotten a bigger tank !

Gary Herring
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Post by Gary Herring » Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:56 am

Emma Turner wrote: Mankind should not force fish to adapt to what we want. The tanks we keep them in should be tailored to their needs, not ours.
Emma
Absolutely. I wish more fishkeepers / shops would take heed of this.

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mikev
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Post by mikev » Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:02 am

An excellent summary, Emma, this should be kept somewhere permanently.

One question that makes me curious: hardness. Is there any evidence/example that soft water may be wrong for a hard water species?

The reverse is obviously true, for loaches and perhaps even more for plecos, but is there any fish that actually needs/may use dissolved solids?

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Emma Turner
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Post by Emma Turner » Sun Jun 25, 2006 12:11 pm

mikev wrote:An excellent summary, Emma, this should be kept somewhere permanently.
Thank you!
mikev wrote:One question that makes me curious: hardness. Is there any evidence/example that soft water may be wrong for a hard water species?

The reverse is obviously true, for loaches and perhaps even more for plecos, but is there any fish that actually needs/may use dissolved solids?
Although not completely answering your question, the following information, taken from the Interpet Manual of Fish Health, and written by the knowledgeable Adrian Exell, may be of interest:

"How Water Hardness Affects Fish:
Water hardness affects freshwater fishies in terms of osmoregulation. Since hard water has a higher concentration of salts than soft water, for example, the osmotic difference between the fish's internal environment and the surrounding water is smaller. In hard water, therefore, the osmoregulatory system has a reduced work load replacing ions lost from the blood. (The presence of calcium in the water also decreases cell permeability, which reduces ion losses and water influx). Conversely, fish in soft water need to have more efficient osmoregulatory systems and expend more effort to maintain their internal salt/water balance.
Water hardness also affects the regulation of blood calcium level, which also depends on diet. Hardwater fish cope with excess blood calcium by using an efficient system for excreting calcium, governed by a hormone called calcitonin. Softwater fish need to obtain more calcium from their diet and also use bones as calcium reservoirs to ensure that blood calcium levels remain constant.
Freshwater fishes have adapted to thrive in an immense range of water hardness values, from the soft acid waters of the Amazon river, with less than 50mg/litre calcium carbonate (3 dH), to the hard alkaline waters of the African Rift Valley lakes, with hardness values exceeding 330mg/litre calcium carbonate (18.5 dH). Within any particular environment, however, fish have tuned their physiological functions to cope efficiently with a fairly narrow range of water hardness levels and therefore osmotic pressure. Altering the hardness values outside this range or disrupting the major ion composition of water hardness will lead to extreme osmotic stress and other physiological malfunctions. As an example, if bicarbonate ions exceed normal levels then bicarbonate excretion by the gills fails, leading to an alkaline pH shift of the blood and symptoms of alkalosis. High bicarbonate levels also alter kidney functions, resulting in calciferous deposits in the kidney tubules. Fish eggs are also affected if they are put in abnormally hard water; they fail to 'harden'. This may sound contradictory, but the egg-hardening process involves the uptake of water from the surrounding medium so that the egg becomes turgid (i.e. hard); a higher than usual hardness level reduces the osmotic gradient between the inside and the outside of the egg and thus decreases the inflow of water.
Different fish species have a varying resistance to changes in water hardness, depending on their ability to alter their osmoregulatory process to changes in osmotic demand. Most fish can be acclimated slowly to abnormal water hardness. In general, however, they will be under unnatural stress and will not achieve optimum performance in growth, breeding, or disease resistance."

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mikev
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Post by mikev » Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:25 pm

Very, very interesting. This makes lots of sense; thanks a lot.

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