Help the Loaches!

[pedzola]

I bumped my flashing thread a couple times, but no response, imma try a new thread....


Need help w/sick fish.

The Problem:
1 YoYo Loach: flashing + large belly
1 Clown Loach: white patch on head

History:
Tank has been clean & disease free since set up in February. I do water changes twice per week. I clean the Eheim 2028 filter on a regular basis.

Started noticing some flashing among shark and yoyo loaches. Noticed yoyo's large belly even tho he hadn't eaten in a while.

Wednesday 6/28 - Added PraziPro thinking I might have some kind of flukes or other parasites that I can not see. Immediately water filled with millions of tiny wriggling wormy things. Figured this was the problem, happy I solved it.

Thursday 6/29 - Fish still flashing a little bit. Thought maybe it just takes a few days to get all the little critters. Prazi bottle says leave 7 days undisturbed.

Friday 6/30 - I notice my largest clown loach (5"?) has a white patch on his head. He hides 24/7 so he might have had it before, and I just didn't notice. I dunno what this white patch is!!! WORRIED!!! Redtail Shark is flashing today also. Also, Yoyo still has a big belly and is still flashing a lot. Thinking the parasite stuff was not the answer.

Saturday 7/1 - Did not touch anything today. Yoyo still flashing a lot. Got a better view of clowns head. White spot almost looks like a scar. It's not extruded from the skin, there are also no "holes" or etc. It's got a couple spidery lines extending from the area, again like a scar. Maybe loach just hit his head real hard on somethin and i never noticed? Or could it be fungal? bacterial? parasitic?

FINAL THOUGHTS:

I don't want to over-medicate the fish. I don't want to give them the wrong medication. I don't want to do nothing and watch them get worse either though. I'm not sure what to do. Should I continue w/another dose of prazi? Should I clean the prazi out and do a maracyn combo? I dunno. Please help! I'm most concerned about the yoyo w/the big belly that is flashing a lot. He has also been acting lethargic lately.

Should I isolate him? Or continue to treat the whole tank?

Thanks everyone.... appreciate your time!


Tank Stats:
75g tank. 7 Clown Loaches. 3 YoYo Loaches. 10 Tiger Barbs. 8 Cherry Barbs. 1 Redtail Shark. 1 UpsideDown Catfish. No live plants.

79F Temp
6.6-6.8 PH
0ppm Ammonia
0ppm Nitrite
5-10ppm Nitrate
5 dGH
3 dKH


PLEASE HELP MY SICK LOACHES! THANKS!!!

[pedzola]

I was just watching the yoyo for a little bit.

He is still flashing a lot. And I noticed that he is resting w/his fins clamped against his body. This can't be good. :\ What can I do to help this fish???


Heres a picture from yesterday, you can see his looks-like-he-just-ate belly:

[mikev]

It is one of those cases where only you can solve the problem and help is not likely -- it is not clear from the description what is going on. Most people on most forums avoid venturing with opinions in unclear cases, since the opinions are very likely to be wrong, and people care about their reputation more than about your fish. You are on your own.

OK, some observations and opinions, maybe of some use, maybe wrong.

Free-swimming round worms in the water may not be related to parasites/flashing. Parasites are *usually* either alive on the fish, or dead on their own; if you see a live worm (or anything) separate from the fish, it is probably not a parasite. It does not have to be edible by fish (your comment from the older thread), in fact parasites sometimes are edible (and then the fish gets infected by the embedded eggs/larvae). It may simply live off the food remains, soil, or organic waste. There are all kinds of worm species of this type. Come with the plants occassionally.

Generally, levimisole is a better tool against worms, roundworms are not affected by Prazi. So, if you still suspect parasites, either do levimisole, or try some *different* med against the external parasites. Observe that several of the poisons used to treat ich are sometimes quite effective against other smaller external parasites (M.blue, M.green). They *may* work and are relatively safe (halfdosed, of course) I'd examine them for ich/irritation signs very carefully too.

As for maracyn combo: why exactly? Do you have any reasons to think that you have a bacterial infection going? Are you willing to risk uncycling your tank with these? What makes you think these drugs are more effective than others? Why, for example, not use tetracycline instead of Maracyn2: it is a wider range overall?

maybe this is of some use.

[pedzola]

Thanks for the response.

I realize that its tough to recommend treatment for a fish you can't observe personally, etc. But sadly I am not much of a fish doctor.

I'm trying to base my diagnosis and treatment on info I've read online. Here, on other forums, and on other fish web sites. From the symptoms the yoyo is exhibiting it SEEMS like parasites from what web sites say - but how can I know?


As for levimisole - sadly I have no idea where I would get this around here. In many threads it said to look for a place that sells farm/livestock supplies. Sadly, in the middle of Connecticut you would be hard pressed to find any such place within a hundred miles.

I remember reading in threads in the archive that PraziPro was nearly as good. So thats what I'm trying.


As for Maracyn combo... I remember reading here in the archives that Maracyn 1 and 2 was often used to treat just about anything and everything. I had no idea that it would kill the beneficial bacteria in my tank.

So I just figured that since the fish seem to be getting worse and not better, maybe it's not parasites after all? It certainly seems like the Prazi was killing all kinds of critters... I can only assume it is doing what it was meant to do.

So after 5 days w/no improvement I'm thinking either:

1) stick it out and add another dose of prazi.
2) try another med
3) isolate the sick yoyo (and do either 1 or 2 above)


But of course there is still the clown w/the white on his head. It is so hard to get a good look at him, he always runs away and hides whenever I seem to get a clear view.

So the clown w/the white on his head was what started me thinking along the lines of a bad bacteria in the tank. Maybe it's causing the yoyo-woes, the flashing in some of my other fish, and the white thing on the clown's head?

I dunno man I'm just totally confused. I dunno what to do. I maintain my tank to the best of my abilities, changing lots of water all the time and keeping everything clean and making sure all the water params are correct... and then all of a sudden my fish start gettin sick.

Bogus.

And I don't have any live plants - so for the parasite/worm things to get into my tank they must have come in w/the fish or in my water (well water).



Thanks for your help. Still not sure what I should do. I think I'm gonna go do a water change and add carbon back to my filter to start cleanin out the first prazi dose.

Maybe Isolate the yoyo in a small spare tank I have. I dunno.

[mikev]

I've been in your situation a couple of times -- recently. While I was able to find the solution at the end, two things became apparent: for less-standard problems, (1) reading Web in search of the exact solution is useless (2) asking questions on forums is useless too.

The following approach, however, was very helpful to me: locate someone who has *really* large amount of experience. Corner the person. Pressure him until you get something useful. Threaten, or promise, but get him talking. Bring a gun, or hire a couple of basketball players, if you must.

My remaining hillstreams are alive because I knew a guy who ran a fishstore for 30 years (and also helped in the store before -- a small family business) and when everything else failed, I pushed him pretty hard. Spent two hours at the store, got him to tell me a number of stories involving symptomless deaths in new shipments and what worked/failed. I did this out of pure despiration, and I knew that he did not work with hillstreams, but it turned out that what he told me actually included the solution. The cost, btw, was $35 -- parking ticket, took time to get him talking.

=========

Now, on Prazi and Levamisole: I used/experimented with both. Prazi is *NOT* anywhere in the same league as Levimisole, at least for the *internals*. I'm not so sure about the *externals* this is why I said: either Levimisole or another external parasite med. But if Prazi did not work in 5 days, scrap it.

Levamisole is easy to by on the internet. Search my previous posts for the exact details. Cost: $15 + shipping, overnight if you want it.

I do agree that parasites (or some chemical in the water) seem more likely than bacteria.

As for Maracyn combo... I remember reading here in the archives that Maracyn 1 and 2 was often used to treat just about anything and everything. I had no idea that it would kill the beneficial bacteria in my tank.

Biofilter: sometimes works, sometimes does not. Maracyn (1, not 2) damaged the nitrIte leg of the cycle in my case. I was treating in a 10g, where you can deal with a spike, but in a main tank? --- too risky, IMHO.

As for the combo: imho, minocycline (M2) is not as good as tetracycline, but at least it seems to be safe. I have very bad opinion on Erythromycin (M1) -- it never solved any problem for me and is outright dangerous for the filter. Other people may disagree.

(Another *personal* opinion is that Mardel is generally garbage; this is based on more than one episode.)

Anyway, if I were in your place, I'd have tried levimisole + some non-antibiotic poison. Perhaps, in the form of an anti-ich med.

And perhaps the key is your clown. Is the Whiteheadi disease migrating from hillstream to mainstream? or what? Post a picture, if you can, it may give some ideas.

Extra water changes will help in most situations, but you are already doing a lot, so probably will not help you. If the tank has been running for long time (>3 mo), UV maybe the solution.
-----

Disclaimer: everything above is my personal opinion and you may kill you fish by following or not following it.

[pedzola]

Thanks for your insight. I will try to find levimisole online. I tried searching posts and searching google but so far have not been able to find a store to buy it from.

I'll keep lookin.


Just did a 50% water change to get rid of some of that prazi. I typically do about 15% twice per week.


"And perhaps the key is your clown. Is the Whiteheadi disease migrating from hillstream to mainstream? or what? "

Not sure exactly what you meant by this? I don't have any hillstream loaches... I will try to get a picture, but this clown is notoriously reclusive, and my camera is notoriously bad at getting pictures of fish.

I will go ahead and give it a shot. I got a view of him again today when cleaning the tank and it looks like a couple different patches on his head and not just 1. Still looks more like a scar than anything else. When this fish gets spooked he takes off like a bat out of hell. I saw him smack into something once, so I am thinking this might have been from injuries sustained while "escaping." But again, I don't wanna assume it's just a physical wound and find out later he's got some flesh eating disease.

I'll try to get a pic.

I'm undecided as to whether to try and remove the ill yoyo, or leave him and treat the whole tank. (assuming I can get some levamisole, I will do that).

I have a 20g w/some other fish in it, and an empty "bookshelf" aquarium that is only 6 gallons. I would feel bad puttin him all alone in the tiny 6g, but it is empty right now and might be the best bet. It is not cycled though. I hate to put healthy fish through medication.


hrmmm... .you think I should medicate the whole 75g w/levimisole? (if I can get it) or what? I'm thinkin that will be my next step.

I've looked into UV sterilization before but not really sure if its worth it? I dunno? This would kill beasties in the water? The prazi bottle says to turn off UV when using. A lot of meds say that. Somethin about ions... toxic when split... somethin like that... not sure of the science.

=|

Still confused I guess, but thanks for the insight and the opinions.

I'm gonna do another big change tomorrow to continue removing the prazi.

Then hopefully I can order some levamisole to arrive on wednesday perhaps and start treating... either the single loach or the whole tank...

I'll try to get pics of that fish w/the white head....

[pedzola]

Found some Levamisole Hydrocholide in pig-powder form at www.pbsanimalhealth.com.

Found it through google, some people on a guppy forum had ordered it from here and used it successfully on worms.


I will try to get pics of that fish now... no guarantees.

[mikev]

Or the place mentioned at the very end of this thread:

http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php ... ltracarepx

instructions on use are there too, this is why indirect link

[pedzola]

Thanks, I already ordered the stuff from the other place.

I tried to get some pics to no avail.

This is the best I could get of the clown loach:


Unfortunately, the shark did not want me taking pictures:



The shark and the big clown (w/the white head) are roommates. They share a black PVC pipe. Shark is a camera hog. He was gettin in front of the loach wherever I moved the camera to.

[pedzola]

I've been tryin to get a good shot of this fish but he is very reclusive. Here is a very fuzzy shot but you can see the extent of the white stuff on his head at least. :\

After some more reading I'm startin to think it could be fungal infection of some scrapes on his head? I dunno.

More bad news... one of my other yoyos has started flashing a lot. Coudl this be due to my large water change today? I am gonna go test my tapwater, im paranoid. It was always fine before. :\

[pedzola]

Just tested the tapwater... very close to whats in the tank now, except for PH. I've got a lot of driftwood in the tank so that might be whats bringing my PH down. Tap Water results that are different are bold. Tank Water differences noted below.


Tap Water:
5 gGH
4 dKH
7.0-7.2 PH
0ppm Nitrate
0ppm Nitrite
0ppm Ammonia

Tank Water Differences:
3 dKH
6.6-6.8 PH
5-10ppm Nitrate

[mikev]

Nothing obviously wrong with the parameters.

In re the white spot: it is of course impossible to see from here, but here is what you should pay attention to:

Fuzzy? -- if yes, fungal, or bacterial (some bacterials *look* like fungal).

Does it appear if the white stuff appears "over" the body|added to the fish, is a "change" to the coloration, or appears like something is "missing" from the fish (eaten away)?

If "missing" --> likely bacterial.
If "over" --> may be an ick-like parasite (ich is just one ogranism from a group), or fungal
If "color change" --> likely bacterial/viral.

This are just general likehoods, but if you can see what kind of spot it is it points you in the right direction. Unf., sometimes it is not obvious: I was looking at one particular fish for more than a month (that "protomyzon" mentioned on another thread) and never could be sure if the white was an addition or change.

If you intend to medicate, you have two choices really: start with levimisole+antiich/antiexternal meds OR levimisole+some antibiotic cocktail. Don't do everything at once, you will surely uncycle the tank. Based on what you said so far, I'd myself go without antibiotics at first, in part because if you do uncycle the tank, you will have a really nasty situation.

Can you move all the loaches to your Q-tank? If NO, you may want to start building an evacuation route in case you do mess up the tank.

[pedzola]

all loaches in the 20 gallon tank = loach madness.

Before I had 7 clowns and 3 yoyos, I had just 3 clowns. I put the 3 clowns int he 20g temporarily (they were in a 40g) and they went nuts.

They went into hiding, would not eat, started getting sick, started slamming themselves into things, etc.

Not pretty. So 10 loaches in there seems to me would be a bad idea.


But you're sayin you would probably try to treat all loaches rather than isolating individuals showing symptoms? (my 1 clown w/the white head, and what looks like might be 2 yoyos now...)

?



=|

Man this sucks.

I can't afford another big tank! Nor is there anywhere to put it. hmmm

I do have a replacement part for my second Eheim 2028 on order... should be in thursday I HOPE. If I get that, then I could run the 2nd filter for a bit or mix up the filter media... then take 1 offline when medicating, and swap when done medication... or something like that.

=| will have to think about it.

Tomorrow and Tuesday I am gonna observe again and hope it doesn't get any worse. I think the Levimisole will be here Wednesday. Thursday or Friday if I'm unlucky.

=|

Regarding the white stuff on clowns head. Looks more like a color change than something missing or added.

[mikev]

all loaches in the 20 gallon tank = loach madness.

beats keeping them in an uncycled tank, if it comes to it.

But you're sayin you would probably try to treat all loaches rather than isolating individuals showing symptoms? (my 1 clown w/the white head, and what looks like might be 2 yoyos now...)

I think it is reasonable to assume that you may have a problem with the entire tank: 2 yoyo's. The clown connection to this is not clear.

You may isolate a yoyo in 20g and treat it as to find which med works. But the chances are that you'll still have to use the same med on the large tank and you may lose a few days. Pluses and Minuses for you to balance.

Man this sucks.

I can't afford another big tank! Nor is there anywhere to put it. hmmm

You got 20g to make sure that in the worst case you can escape there. Make sure to have things like Prime, Biospira, Ammochips handy before you play with antibiotics. Yes, running a spare filter on a small tank with ammonia may work nicely.

Tomorrow and Tuesday I am gonna observe again and hope it doesn't get any worse. I think the Levimisole will be here Wednesday. Thursday or Friday if I'm unlucky.

I don't think that Levamisole will solve the problem --- but it is surely worth a shot and any loach should be treated with it anyway. It is also risk-free for the biofilter.

[pedzola]

I'm hoping levamisole will solve the yoyo problems. The flashing & the large belly.

For the sake of fixing it, I hope it is parasites.


As for the clown... yeah.. seems totally unrelated. Not sure what to do w/him.

I'll try to get a good look @ his head tomorrow and see if its getting any worse. If it is, I might take him out and try to treat w/somethin bacterial in the 20g.